Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Civ001, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Unicomplex? What unicomplex? That concept wasn't invented until VOY. The cube could have been the equivalent. Guinan didn't say anything about cubes. The cube could have been the mothership which launched the swarms.

    Guinan said "when they come, they'll come in force... they don't do anything piecemeal... when they left, none of my people were alive." The intro to BOBW is in line with this. They find a planet that the Borg attacked, everyone is dead. The admiral says "we've known this was coming for a year." It was quite obviously the sequel to Q Who and the conclusion of that arc.

    And you still haven't responded to what I said about TDM. For some reason, you say the only "suitable wrap-up" would be the complete, unambiguous wiping out of the entire species, but this mysteriously isn't a requirement for any other similar stories. When has this ever happened with other powerful beings or technology? Whether there were more planet killers was still up in the air.


    Okay, you've lost me.
     
  2. antiquityscion

    antiquityscion Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    I always thought the Borg, at least cosmetically, were inspired by the Cenobites of Hellraiser.

    [​IMG]

    They look a lot alike, and then there is the cube factor, too!

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  3. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Right, one ship is supposed to represent their mobile homeworld. That's why we saw the "swarms" in BOBW, oh no wait we didn't! All we saw was one ship, out of millions.

    This wasn't in line with what Guinan said. The One Cube was not part of a "swarm", no "swarms" were launched from that Cube in BOBW, the way she said the line in Q Who? implied that true Borg force was NOT one Cube yet that's all we saw. It's not a proper conclusion.

    A proper conclusion would be finding the Borg guarding the Transwarp Conduit they used to get to Federation space and destroying it, sealing them back in the Delta Quadrant. Or finding out where Borg HQ is in the Alpha Quadrant and destroying it. Or that one Cube was its own Collective unto itself and the other Borg throughout the Galaxy know nothing of the Federation. Not just leaving it be after only ONE ship attacks them.

    In ALL those cases, the superbeings/weapons encountered are always ancient things and one-shots with the implication being that they were just remnants of long-dead folk. The Borg were a still-existing force after BOBW.

    TNG and DS9 follow the idea of all folks in the Trekverse having the same types of borders and space no matter where they are, the Fed in the Alpha Quadrant, the Dominion ruling the Gamma Quadrant. To follow this story conceit, the Borg rule the Delta Quadrant. If they DIDN'T do that, then the show just gets slammed AGAIN for not following other shows' rules.
     
  4. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    That's extreme. One little speed advantage out of one ship designed for speed and now the Entire Collective is a bunch of wussies?

    That's exactly what did in BOBW so there "emasculated" anyway.


    Only if you don't have any imgination beyond that point. It might be just the begin. Perhaps the worse thing that happened to Voyager was Trek Fans with no imagination, either that or writers with no imagination.


    That's not what I suggested though.

    Somewhere implies an unknown factor.
    We never saw that ship again. and even after Voyager showed us the Borg again in Scorpion they didn't show the Transwarp tech either.

    Yeah, Q said as much that they will out last your reserves, no power limitations like Federation ships are known to have.


    What DS9 did was take ridiculous enemies and pitted them against valiant heroes. DS9 is stuipd. How many times did the Founders let intregal people survive when they could have killed them and have been done with it? How many times did they capture instead of destroy? Fans pay more attention to the Borg in Voyager but senselessly praise DS9 as though we were all watching 24 or something. DS9 did exactly the same as VOY because it all came from one persons...(the two that are one) Brannon and Berman. Pointing it out in Voyager's match ups against the Borg and then point to DS9 just makes DS9 look idiotic and Voyager Smarter than it is because at least Voyager kept the match up in the technology and not in the FLAGGING Common Sense of Changelings and Vorta.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2011
  5. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    First of all, the mobile homeworld was YOUR idea:

    "If it had been the Unicomplex itself coming to attack Earth..."

    And now you're ridiculing it? Make up your mind.

    And why not? We didn't know how many Borg there were, and the cube was enormous. At least 28 cubic kilometers remember?


    You're grasping at straws. She was describing what happened to her people a century ago. The foreshadowing line is merely "they'll be coming". And they came. Prophecy fulfilled. Any implication that there would be more coming was just as subtle as the similar implications in Doomsday Machine.


    :sigh: Okay, let's go down the list:

    - They believed the planet killer came from another galaxy, but never found out how it got there and certainly did nothing to prevent more from coming.
    - It was obviously a machine built by aliens, but they never found the HQ of those aliens.
    - They never found out whether it was the only one.
    - They just left it be after only ONE attacked them.

    You give the planet killer and every other comparable threat a free pass but remain hellbent on criticizing TNG's Borg conclusion. It's almost as if you're... an unpleasable audience. :lol:


    How can there be any implication about the creators if we have no idea where it came from? And supposing it is a leftover, how do we know it's the only one?

    "In ALL those cases"? I thought you would have learned your lesson by now not to make such bold, absolute claims, because of how easy it is to be proven wrong. Which you are. Wrong, that is.

    Planet killer:
    Spock: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those weapons wandering around the universe."

    Crystalline Entity:
    Not a long-dead remnant. It was alive, with no implication that it was the miraculous sole survivor of an extinct species. So the rest are still out there.

    Kevin Uxbridge:
    Picard: "We leave behind a being of extraordinary power..."

    And so on.


    What? There have been plenty of powerful races this doesn't apply to. Obviously, since there are only 4 quadrants to go around. Quadrants weren't even well established until DS9. Federation space does not encompass the entire Alpha Quadrant, and it extends to part of the Beta Quadrant. This is by far the most absurd argument you have come up with so far.
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    That's not enough to qualify as a "mobile homeworld" for a civilization like the Borg. The Unicomplex at least would be believable as a mobile homeworld. And the Unicomplex at least matches the "Swarm" thing.

    The implication was that their one encounter in "Q Who?" was just the tip of the iceberg and a REAL Borg attack would be far worse.

    They believed it was an ancient automated weapon and thus not part of some bigger group. They thought it probable that its creators destroyed themselves eons ago, and that it was probably the only one (that it destroyed its creators, likely). It was NOT part of an entire species of sentient Planet Killers that deliberately were out to destroy the Federation.

    And it was easier to beat than a Borg Cube.

    Covered this.

    It's not a hostile lifeform out to destroy humanity, and they developed a method of communication with it.

    A compassionate being that felt remorse and had no desire to destroy the Galaxy.

    So the Dominion can rule the Gamma Quadrant, but it's absurd for the Borg to rule the Delta Quadrant. Is that it?
     
  7. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Given the audience-reaction to VOY, apparently yes.

    Yeah, and it was only in VOY that anyone whined about it. Double standard.

    The Klingon situation would have spread to the point it affected humanity and Earth too. Plus the characters all had histories with the Klingons so we can connection there as well.

    The VOY crew had NO connection to ANYONE in the DQ, nor would anything happening in the DQ have any effect on Humanity's well-being.

    Actually, we did see that Borg ship again in VOY on a screen readout.

    They had also already been to the Federation before when they attacked the Neutral Zone. Simple explanation is that they used a Transwarp Conduit.

    Not that I disagree with your criticism of DS9, but it was Ira Behr and Ron Moore who were more in charge of that stuff for that show.
     
  8. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    It was. BOBW was the "REAL Borg attack". This was obvious.


    All of that came from your imagination. The only thoughts that were actually stated in dialog were:

    - it came from outside the galaxy
    - it was built by an unknown race
    - it was a weapon of mass destruction
    - are there more out there?


    Hardly. You said that Spock's uncertainty doesn't compare to Guinan's prediction that they would definitely be coming back. But that prediction was already realized. I'm comparing the uncertainty at the end of BOBW to the uncertainty at the end of TDM, and you changed the rules to compare it to QW instead. Then you changed your argument to say the only suitable conclusion would be completely sealing off the Borg or absolute destruction of their entire race. None of which happened in TDM.


    Hostile or not, it IS out to destroy life, because it feeds on it. Their attempt at communication was a failure.


    You're not saying the Borg could rule the Delta Quadrant, you're saying they absolutely must based on the fact that a single point of their territory happens to be there and that the audience would be confused and outraged if it turned out any other way. THAT is absurd.

    You seem to have forgotten what we're arguing about. I'm not saying they couldn't have ruled the entire quadrant, I'm saying it was one possibility out of many. You're saying it was the only possibility, in a vain attempt to blame TNG for locking VOY into writing stories that were -- as you claim -- inherently flawed. You painted yourself into a corner by making that claim.
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    BOBW was not a "real" attack based on what Q Who? said. Q Who? mentioned swarms, while BOBW was just one ship.

    The stuff about the TDM came from the Trek Chronology book (which I think is canon) where it mentions that TDM was also thousands of years old. Being that old makes it a relic, an artifact of a dead species.

    It doesn't. TDM was never made out to be anything more than a one-shot, aside from that one line at the end that doesn't really change that. The Borg were made out to be much more than a one-shot, and the wrote themselves into a corner by overpowering them so much.

    But it's still more than anything they could accomplish with the Borg. And the Entity wasn't stupidly overpowered either, killing it was very possible (and happened).

    So if it turned out that they only had one planet under their control in VOY, you WOULDN'T be utterly let down by that and consider it an "emasculation" of the Borg that they only have one world?
     
  10. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Location:
    The Singularity
    Guinan mentions in "Q Who?" that their technology has been developing for thousands of years. We see them scan the Enterprise computers and immediately, they're technology is the better for it, as they proceed to tear the Enterprise a new @$$hole.

    Hence the title of this thread. Voyager weakened the Borg. There was a tranwarp conduit 1-light year from Earth, with multiple cubes on the other end. What exactly was stopping the Queen from sending those cubes through to assimilate Earth? That's right, writer incompetence.

    There were some other things brought up in this thread, which I'll address:

    1) The Borg didn't kill anyone from that world they assimilated in BOBW. The wording was that they "scooped" everything off the planet. The away team beams down there and we see a giant hole where a city was. So what dead bodies are you (Zar) talking about?

    2) Here are 2 maps of the Star Trek galaxy:

    1

    2

    So, as you can see, the Federation extends into the Beta Quadrant, explaining that scene in Star Trek: TUC. The quadrant terminology existed as far back as TOS. Canon.
     
  11. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    :guffaw: Now you're REALLY grasping at straws.

    Okay, I'll play along.

    The Chronology wasn't published until 1993. That's 6 years after TNG started. So why didn't TNG have a continuity obligation for the first 6 seasons to "conclude" the planet killer like VOY supposedly did with the Borg?


    You're selectively ignoring counterarguments again. You're just repeating yourself, while the rest of that paragraph that you conveniently chose not to quote already shot it down. :rolleyes:


    No it isn't more than they accomplished with the Borg. If being able to kill the enemy fits your criteria of a definite conclusion, then the successful destruction of the cube in BOBW must count as well. You haphazardly change the rules to fit your argument.


    You are truly a master of oversimplification and exaggeration. ONE PLANET is the alternative to A QUARTER OF THE GALAXY? :guffaw:

    Besides, it's not only the sheer volume of their territory that's in question here. The point is we had no way to know that it constituted the entire Delta Quadrant. Look at my diagrams again. They could have had controlled an area equal or greater to the size of the Delta Quadrant without encompassing the Delta Quadrant itself. Hell, the DQ conduit terminus could have merely been a single node in a long flight path leading through every quadrant and/or several other galaxies.

    Therefore the Voyager was not necessarily bound to run into them. Stop trying to shirk their responsibility to a different show. It was VOY and VOY alone who chose to give the Borg a central homeland at all, let alone put it smack dab in the middle of Voyager's path.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2011
  12. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    You're right there were no bodies, but then again Guinan didn't say there were bodies either, she said there was "little or nothing left". This was the first clear hint in BOBW that it was in fact the coming attack that Guinan predicted. In QH they merely scoop out part of the Enterprise's hull, for "information gathering". In the real attack they scoop up an entire planet at once, just like Guinan said happened to her people.

    And by the way your first hotlink doesn't work... here it is on tinypic: http://i51.tinypic.com/fkzf40.jpg
     
  13. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    The Chronology was made using existing Trek information, meaning it was already in the show's continuity that TDM was thousands of years old. And the episode it was in already implied that in the first place so there was enough wrap-up aside from Spock's meaningless closing line.

    So you're saying that there were definitely going to be other DMs out there for them to run into?

    Being able to kill Borg as easily as they learned they could kill the Entity? Yes, that would wrap the Borg up since now they could be killed as easily as the Klingons.

    Answer my question, if they only ran into one Borg world in the entire series would you mind?

    Yes they were, TNG already let us know they were in the Delta Quadrant. And since TOS already said that there was something keeping folks from leaving the Galaxy willy-nilly (the Galactic Barrier), TNG already let us know who was in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, DS9 hoarded the Gamma Quadrant to itself, then that leaves the Borg to the Delta Quadrant in conjunction with prior evidenced. And unless they are utterly half-assed they should rule their home territory. And if they're spread throughout all Quadrants they should constantly be assaulting everyone in all Quadrants for conquest of the Galaxy. This isn't so, seeing all the other shows, so by default they're in the DQ and should rule it.
     
  14. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    No it wasn't.


    Definitely? No. Maybe? Yes. You're the one implying there definitely weren't going to be more of them while there definitely were going to be more Borg invasions unless it was made clear that they were utterly wiped out. In reality both of them were left with closure to the immediate threat, yet open-ended, which is a good way to end a story because it gives the writers the most freedom for the future.


    They found a weakness and exploited it -- in both cases. Circumstances can change; weak points can be defended. If all writers followed your logic that our heroes finding a way to kill an enemy means their threat is gone forever, we'd never have any recurring enemies at all.


    You are asking two vastly different questions. The first said they only have one world, the second says Voyager only runs into one world. I'll answer both of them.

    Your original question:

    So if it turned out that they only had one planet under their control in VOY, you WOULDN'T be utterly let down by that and consider it an "emasculation" of the Borg that they only have one world?

    It depends what "have under control" means. If it means there is only one planet that has ever been raped by the Borg, yes that would be a letdown considering we already know they've been at it for centuries.

    However if it means they are actually controlling the world with some type of government... well, in that case I'd be satisfied with them having zero planets under their control. Because as we were told in Q Who:

    Q: "They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology."

    Your new question:

    if they only ran into one Borg world in the entire series would you mind?

    No I wouldn't mind. They could pass through a peninsula of Borg-dominated space and only have to confront one cube. Or they could do the sensible thing and run like hell at the first sight of Borg.


    I commend you for providing an actual argument to back this up for once. It's not true though. There is almost no mention of the Beta Quadrant, and as I've already said Federation space doesn't cover all of the Alpha Quadrant. Not even close. The vast majority is completely unexplored.

    Besides that, though, your argument is already self-defeating. It's based on the assumption that the Borg can't coexist in "claimed" space, yet at the same time you're claiming that they own the entire Delta Quadrant despite the fact that we see other affiliations living there as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  15. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Yet they still have to figure out the shield & phaser frequency every time?
    Hasn't the tech of the Federation been developing for thousands of years too?
    Are the Borg just a mirror of us, if we allowed tech to overrun us? Isn't that why Picard & Janeway both keep talking about that's why individuality is better than the hive mind? Isn't that why we keep finding loop holes in their "superior" technology because they don't think of everything?
    Didn't Guinan also mention the more the Federation got used to the Borg, we might be able to learn how to deal with them?
    So it was planned back then that we'd be able to be somewhat equal in time.

    It isn't writer incompetence.
    As a writer and producer, why would you sabotage the future of the Trek universe and you're own job by assimilating Earth and ending any future of Trek?
    So again going by what Guinan said, one day the Federation would and can get around the Borg. The writers were following their own canon the whole time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  16. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    There shouldn't be any bodies.
    Seven, Hugh, Picard, Icheb and the Borg kids, the 3 from Survival Instinct, Janeway, Tuvok & B'Elanna were all Borg and all still kept very much alive.
     
  17. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    No, writer incompetence put the transwarp conduit 1-light year from Earth in the first place. They put themselves in a situation that has no reasonable explanation as to why it wouldn't lead to ending the future of Trek.
     
  18. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Location:
    The Singularity
    Both links work for me, but thanks.

    Starfleet alternates their shield and phaser frequencies, when fighting the Borg. This was stated on screen. There's no way that we could ever be equal to the Borg. It just doesn't work that way. It's like saying that one day, we're going to make germs go away. No, we're not. It just doesn't work that way.

    The reason they kept finding loopholes is because the writers decided that they should find loopholes. Nothing more.

    Well, whatta you know, I'm a writer, too. Small world/big Internet. They didn't have to sabotage anything. When creating an enemy that's outrageously overpowered, the best thing to do is (a) keep their appearances to a minimum and (b) all encounters with them must lead to HEAVY repercussions/casualties. Anything less than this is incompetence.

    It happened with Doomsday. It happened with Venom. And it happened with the Borg.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    BOBW did NOT give closure to the immediate threat. ALL they did was destroy ONE Cube. That's not closure, that's just barely surviving while the enemy is still out there and still knows where you live and how weak you are.

    No, it means that overpowered enemies who depend solely on how overpowered they are, are a BAD idea. The Borg were utterly boring without their overpowered status, which is what the core flaw with them was in the first place.

    So, basically you'd be dis-satisfied either way. Typical.

    And then the audience would go "What a rip-off, why did I waste my time with this when I can watch Sisko fight the Dominion every few episodes?" and change the channel.

    "What a bunch of spineless cowards. Kirk never ran from any Gods or Planet Killers, and the TNG crew didn't abandon Earth to the Borg but these pansies can't do anything right."

    Again, no-win scenario. They should have either explained that the Delta Quadrant is loaded with species as powerful or more powerful than the Borg and these guys are keeping the Borg at bay (and from launching massive invasions of the other Quadrants) or have them as a constant threat assimilating everyone VOY encounters throughout the show.

    Seeing how the audience reacted to the idea that there was even ONE species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472), having the Quadrant be full of such species would just enrage them moreso. And the second option again just makes the VOY crew a bunch of incompetents for not finding ways to save anyone from the Borg (if they DID find a way of saving them from the Borg, then the Borg are emasculated no matter how well-written it is).

    You just can't win.
     
  20. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    ...Which WAS the immediate threat. That was the entire invasion they sent. That single cube scooped up an entire planet, which thus far was the extent of what we had learned their full force was capable of. We were given no reason to believe they HAD another invasion, let alone were capable of having one reach Earth. Not until VOY revealed an entire fleet sitting on the other end of a conduit leading directly to Earth.


    Core trait, you mean. It's only your lack of imagination that makes it a flaw.


    What do you mean, "either way"? Only one "way" was being discussed. The opposite, "other way", would have been that it turns out the Borg had raped millions of planets instead of just one. In which case, no, I would not be dissatisfied. So please Anwar, for the love of Kolk'r. Stop. Putting. Words. In. My. Mouth. :vulcan:


    No. Stop.


    Your "no-win" is easily solved by not having them completely overrunning the entire quadrant in the first place.