Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Civ001, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. Civ001

    Civ001 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    So I watched some STV and I see a lot of comments on spacebattles.com and other sites that Voyager totaly weakened the Borg a lot. Why do people assume this?
     
  2. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because VOY didn't have the cannon fodder TNG did to sacrifice to the Borg, it makes them appear less powerful that they aren't killing lots of people every time they show up.

    And also, TNG had the luxury of only ever showing one Borg ship at a time (since the Borg were more of an unknown in terms of numbers) while VOY didn't have that luxury and had to show multiple Borg vessels (in order to compete with how DS9 presented the Dominion) because they were going through the core of the Collective's actual territory.

    That, and Trekkers don't like Janeway very much and were hoping Voyager would be destroyed by the Borg each and every time. They were just PO'ed it didn't happen.
     
  3. froot

    froot Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's partly a valid complaint in that we do see the Borg quite a bit, which does kill a little of the mystery (well, for some - I never found the Borg design to be visually nightmare-inducing - even in TNG, when they were rampaging around Wolf 359. The BQ is the only thing that really looks truly scary to me.)

    However, save for one tiny scout ship, there is never a point in which Voyager single-handedly takes on a Borg ship and wins. They usually run away, are helped by another powerful ship or set of ships, or get showered with magical future technology from a bitter older lady.

    The fact that ordinary little Voyager sans backup was absolutely zero match for the Borg was always maintained.
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Look, if being "mysterious" is the only thing that makes someone interesting, that just shows how poorly thought out said creation is in the first place.
     
  5. froot

    froot Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hey, when you're on a budget, it's 1989, and all you've got on hand is some leftover tubing and Gorilla Glue and the writers want to make a social statement about the dangers of groupthink, you do what you gotta do. ;) At least they sort of updated the look of the Borg from their '80s iteration into something more convincingly cyborg-ish during VOY and First Contact (if still a little '80s-ish at heart.)
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What I mean is, if fully defining the Borg is what helped "ruin" them then the Borg were a crappy enemy to begin with that defining them does that.
     
  7. starlitegirl

    starlitegirl Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    :guffaw:

    It's like they assimilated a species of edgy fashion designers somewhere in the middle.
     
  8. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it would have been interesting if there were two types of visually distinct Borg:

    We know from "Q Who?" that the Borg were meant to be a species that willingly chose to become a cybernertic hivemind and that they weren't all assimilated people.

    I think they should have kept some Borg that we saw as the way they were in Q Who? and BOBW, just white skin. These would be the "pure" Borg who were always Borg from birth.

    The others that look like zombies from "First Contact" onwards would represent the ones who were forcefully assimilated.

    So we'd have scenes were the less gross looking Borg would be standing side by side with the mutilated zombie ones.
     
  9. starlitegirl

    starlitegirl Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    They were meant to look like mutilated zombies. That was the whole hive mind groupthink idea that was supposed to be symbolic. It just wasn't done very well at first because I don't think they realized how important it was going to be. I suspect they knew they were going to have multiple episodes, but they hadn't realized its true potential. If they had, they would have done a much better job on the makeup and costumes like they did with Worf and Data. Even the blue alien that cuts Worf's hair gets a better makeup job than the Borg did.
     
  10. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    Voyager was prominent at the time and often went with the Borg in the last 2 seasons. But the real culprit is Star Trek First Contact.

    First Contact:

    Introduced the Borg Queen:

    This was a contradiction to what TNG told us about the Borg. That they were a collective. First Contact reversed all that by making it a hive mind. TNG reinforced the collective mind with Troi's empathic perceptions and they further said there were NO individuals. This means that the borg were all conscious individuals working in concert to a common goal. Locutus merely became a figure to represent the Borg to the Human race...a mouth piece.

    Introduced Nanite Assimilation
    This didn't fit with the Borg of TNG.
    Hugh never tried to assimilate any of his captors
    Neither did Lore's Borg attempt this sort of assimilation

    Zombie Borg
    First Contact portrayed the Borg as zombies, physically. missing body parts. Instead of Pale white they had a translucent veiny apparence, Instead of clean surgical prosthetic their limbs seemed disfigured and incompetently modified. Along with this zombie effect there was critical color added to all borg functions....green...tractor beams, lights of any kind and weapons were suddenly and inexplicably all green.

    Lost of Regenerative Abilities.
    Borg ships previously had the ability to regenerate at incredible speeds, this is what made defeating the Borg so difficult at wolf 359. No ship ever regenerated in such a way ever again.

    All in all First Contact is the origin of the stupid Borg. Voyager just followed suit. So the claim that Voyager is to blame is bit nonsensical. Rick Berman is to blame.
     
  11. Supernuke

    Supernuke Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't agree. Voyager encountered the Borg so incredibly often, that it made them look weak. Look at how massive the Cubes were in First Contact and in The Best of Both Worlds; they dwarf the cubes in Voyager. This makes them a much less threatening enemy in my opinion in VOY. Then Voyager goes on to destroy entire groups of Borg ships without getting a scratch, while in TNG one cube took out 40 starships and in FC one cube is back to being very threatening to large amounts of ships. 8472 also didn't help the Borg in being that powerful race that was supposed to exemplify why humans were naive in exploring the galaxy. Instead this species easily destroyed the Borg, making them look weak. This is just my opinion though, so feel free to rip me apart.
     
  12. BlobVanDam

    BlobVanDam Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think Voyager weakened the Borg. I think they did weaken the history of the Borg, with the backstory of 7's parents, but I still think the Borg held true enough to what was established up to First Contact. They definitely had some weak Borg stories though. The Borg babies come to mind.
     
  13. froot

    froot Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Repeating what I said above: No - that never happened.

    Outside of a small scout ship, Voyager never killed a single Borg ship on its own without outside help of some kind, much less "entire groups." "Endgame" was the only thing I'd consider overkill, but even then they were working with fancy future technology and someone who had spent years upon years dealing with and studying the Borg.

    We saw a large group of Cubes just once, in "Scorpion." And the only thing Voyager did was sit there and wet its pants as they flew by.
     
  14. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    That's highly perceptional. Many of the encounters were indirect. Such as Unimatrix Zero (initially) Hope and Fear was extremely indirect, Scorpion was actual a perfect storm was Borg episodes go. A direct encounter of collaboration. One Direct Encounter with the 29th century Borg was direct and extremely unfavorable to Voyager. Even when Unimatrix Zero became more direct they had the help of a Borg Sphere. With what the writers were using from First Contact they were actually doing a good job with special situations between Borg and the Voyager.


    I saw no difference in size really.

    You guys forget Intrepid is Fighting Starship, it's Galaxy equivalent at the least in Firepower. Janeway litterally informs one Borg ship that Voyager can match their firepower and it was no idol threat. Voyager disable their shields in two hits.



    Yeah but Star Fleet advanced. Nothing stays the same. They learned.

    The only thing that Voyager litterally said or did to make the Borg look weak is give them the ridiculous limitation that they couldn't learn anything except through assimilation. You'd think the Borg had never assimilated researchers and scientist that they didn't know how to create work arounds. That's about as stupid as a civilization having tech but not knowing how to fix tech.
     
  15. froot

    froot Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That was a tiny scout ship, not a Cube.

    Plus I think the Intrepid is itself a scout ship and/or science vessel more than anything.
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    If I had a penny for every time I heard that...

    Rick Berman is to blame for giving us many years of enjoyable Star Trek after Gene Rodenberry died. Yes, it was imperfect - just as Star Trek was imperfect in the years prior to him taking over.

    As for the OP and the Borg: "Invincible" enemies, as the Borg were portrayed as up until "Descent" (when Beverly, of all people, assisted by a group of newbie halfwits, effortlessly destroyed a Borg ship), lose their aura of invincibility when they're defeated time and time again. It was inevitable.:shrug:

    They were still cool villains, IMO. And they'll be back one day.
     
  17. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    I never said it was a Cube, just that it was a Borg Ship that in itself is pretty significant that it beat a ship its equivalent size with extreme easy.

    Intrepid is a cruiser like most Federation ships.
    It has more phasers than a Galaxy Class or Sovereign Class Starship, The best sensors in the fleet (at the time) scanning for a distance of 15 lightyears in just seconds, Likely Galaxy equivalent shields, and some extremely powerful photon torpedoes.

    In Basics we see that Firepower on bare hull and it's ridiculous that Voyager took out a ship 1200 meters long with 3 torpedoes and a phaser barrage. Remember this ship's First mission was a combat mission, you don't send scouts on combat mission. Scouts are for recon. This was a crusier assignment just like any Galaxy, Nebula or Excelsior would get.

    Many think Voyager is a science vessel or Scout but no scout ship would be that big with a crew that size. Defiant is more like a scout ship if you believe it's 120 meter popular size (which I don't) And No science ship would need a speed 3 times that of the Galaxy to do it's mission. Voyager was nothing less than state-of-the art and a formidable offensive weapon. Among all the ship in Star Fleet Intrepid is second only to the Nemesis Sovereign in phasers and torpedo hardpoints.


    If your enemy is stronger than you, you must find unconventional ways to defeat them. Beverly relied on her skill set. I didn't have a problem. Where the Borg Become senseless idiots is when they send a single cube time after time to destroy an entire sovereignty like the Federation. (First Contact) and time travel back in time when you fail...(First Contact) instead of going back in time first and using the Cube to assimilate Earth (First Contact) and when you do get to Earth of the past you use "firecrackers" instead of of a thermonuclear warhead to destroy the famed test facility of Zephram Cochrane....(First Contact)

    What ever invincibility they had after TNG died in movie....
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2011
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's possible that the Intrepid Class Starship circa 2370 is about as powerful in a short fight as a Galaxy Class 2363, However by 2370, a Galaxy Class Refit with contemporary upgrades and seven years of walking the line would make the Intrepid look like the oversized shuttlecraft that it is.

    Here's why Voyager seems so powerful, when Picard tried to run away in Q Who, he couldn't his ship was not fast enough or powerful enough to escape. They were going to cut the Enterprise up for parts and flush his crew into space.

    Janeway's two true advantages are first that the the Borg assimilate civilizations not individuals and second that they had no more curiosity about humanity or the Federation. The Borg had nothing to prove and assimilating Voyager would render no technical or tactical advantage vs. the effort of tucking them into Collective.

    Kinda like America and Puerto Rico.
     
  19. Supernuke

    Supernuke Commander Red Shirt

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    When I said Voyager destroyed many ships, I meant in endgame. They destroyed the entire hub and those Borg vessels. When they were invisioned I doubt they were supposed to be an enemy that could be outsmarted by better technology in the future. They were supposed to adapt to that within a few uses.
     
  20. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg were very badly damaged by Fed tech in their first appearance. They needed to drain the Enterprise database for information and slice a chunk of the ship out to analyze it before they could adapt to anything. AND they had to repair the damage to their ship first.

    And if the guys they're fighting have weaponry on par with or superior to Borg tech, then it's debatable IF they Borg can adapt at all.

    The Borg were never meant to be as overpowered as the fandom made them out to be.

    Personally, I'd have introduced the 8472 aliens in TNG. I'd have introduced them in "Q Who?" itself: Q teleports the Enterprise into the middle of a battle between the 8472 and the Borg, with the Borg losing. The Enterprise runs away and one of the Cubes chases them.

    It would make it clear that the Borg's adaptive powers works well on the Feds because they're clearly inferior to the Borg. But if the Borg are fighting with someone equal to them, no dice.