Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Khan 2.0, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    But would that really have improved the movie, made it more dramatic or exciting or compelling or whatever? Would it have improved the acting or the directing or the pacing? Would it have made the slightest bit of difference at the box office?

    In other words, what would it have accomplished, aside from scratching some sort of continuity itch? And in a rebooted version of the franchise to boot?

    (And, yes, I understand the fictional time-travel gimmick involved. But, in the real world, it's basically a reboot aimed a new generation of viewers. And what's the point of rebooting the whole shebang if we're still going to treat the old episodes as gospel?)

    Rationalizing discrepancies away is what fanzines, message boards, and novels are for! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  2. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Like everything it's subjective. I'm not qualified to comment on Box Office. So I'll call that moot. Same. No difference. If it succeeded or failed - having images of Peter Weller, the Botany Bay and somebody who may or may not look like Montalban in one of those tubes, flash up while Cumberbatch tells us who he is - isn't exactly going to have been responsible for it.

    For my own enjoyment, I'm obviously going to say yes... as far as the additional bit of Khantext is concerned. Improved.
     
  3. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Well, we're digressing a bit here, but my main point was that, from a practical standpoint, some bits of Trek lore are more fudge-able than others, especially when you're talking about what is basically a brand-new cycle of Trek movies anyway. And that bit from "Space Seed" hardly seems like something etched in stone at this point.

    Nostalgic nods to the old version are fun for us old-timers, of course, but "canon" doesn't really matter anymore. Or at least it's hardly the only consideration that matters.
     
  4. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    I'll more than live with it. I like BC as Khan.

    I never answered the earlier question as to why I felt the comic took something away from Cumberbatch. BC as Khan, to me, created a fresh character with a past which was new territory to be explored, much as the other characters are slightly different in the new movies. The comic basically says, never mind, this Khan really IS your father's Khan. I guess I would rather have left Khan's transformation unexplained to give BC more story to tell in a future installment, if Trek goes that route.
     
  5. sbk1234

    sbk1234 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My issue is NOT with Cumberbatch playing Khan. My issue was that after only 12 movies, they were ALREADY copying themselves by using the same villain as before. I think the movie would have been much better if they had simply used him as John Harrison and left out all the Khan business, since it really added NOTHING to the story, and I think, detracted from it.
     
  6. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So Section 31 … wiped Khan's memories of being Khan so they could … better use his mental abilities to develop weapons and strategies … which they had to do so their top-secret plan to usurp civilian control of the military and start a galactic war … might not be tainted by the association of someone with the same name as a war criminal from three centuries back … in case someone learns about the project before it's done and … learns about the name of one of the weapons developers and … thinks worse of the scheme for it.

    You know, sometimes, it really is easier to pretend you didn't notice the recasting.
     
  7. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not a reboot, despite people on the internet always insisting that it must be. They took great pains in the last film to explain that it was an altered timeline branching from the original, including the appearance of post-Unification Spock in the form of Nimoy, and they continued to lampshade this fact in STID with the discussion of how things must have turned out in the original timeline.

    What's the point of using Khan as an attention-grabbing device at all, if it's not aimed at people familiar with TWOK ( and possibly Space Seed as well )? If it's all about a whole new generation of viewers unencumbered by baggage from previous canon, why not just have Cumberbatch play John Harrison the supersoldier and leave it at that?

    Since the Prime timeline and the Abramsverse share the same history before a certain point, that would seem inevitable.
     
  8. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    [LEFT]When I heard 'my name is Khan' in the cinema (confirming 3 years of rumours) I was fully expecting either:[/LEFT]
    [LEFT]a) he was lying and was just one of the 72 (Joachim - BC looks abit like Judson Scott) posing as khan like Ras Al Gould in Batman Begins, or even a Rambo/Danar/Bourne type supersoilder born from a certain superhumans DNA/blood (big mystery until we find out its from Khan) , and the film would then be about 'The Search for Khan' with Khan still in a cryo pod in a secret S31/Area 51 type location (Khan wouldve been like the Ark in Raiders or the alien at the end of Crystal Skull or the engineer in Prometheus. something mystical/mythical, frightening, too dangerous to awaken) the film would then build toward the climax and the reveal...are they going to show Khan and if they do who will it be (some guy like Del Toro or Barhem?) then big surprise its the REAL Khan (CG 1967 Space Seed Montalban) who would either then be awakened by Harrison like the engineer in Prometheus leading to a Khan rampage finale like 'Arnie' in Terminator 4, before hes killed along with Harrison (or just defeated and put back in storage ) or wed just see him in the cryo pod and thats all . I was still kind of expecting something like that right at the end when we see Cumberbatch in the cryo pod - the camera would pan across and wed see 1967 Montalban in the next pod (an in joke for the fans...non fans would just think BC was Khan)[/LEFT]
    [LEFT] [/LEFT]
    [LEFT]b) hed had his face changed as in the comics and at some point wed get the flashback scene or wed see Montalbans face on a computer screen as Spock researches him (like the briefing room scene in Space Seed) or even a line of dialogue from BC saying hed had his face changed.[/LEFT]
    [LEFT] [/LEFT]
    [LEFT]When neither happened I was in trekkie turmoil!...and later started to accept the fact that this nuKhan always looked like that (like Pine Kirk, Qunito Spock etc and indeed Savvik) and as in TWOK they were downplaying the Indian warlord angle (in Space Seed anyway) and emphasizing the genetically altered/artificially created angle which is why Khan looks almost manufactured like David in Prometheus or a more humanoid Data (apt considering Soong featured in the Augment 3 parter – which also featured another Caucasian augment with an indian name - 'Malick') or even a slimmer T800 (which he basically turned into when he went 'full Khan' at the end). it was more the nietzschean superman route.[/LEFT]
    [LEFT] [/LEFT]
    [LEFT]Then they did the comic...[/LEFT]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  9. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The idea of Section 31 having brainwashed him, and a proud man like Khan seeing his change in appearance, as mutilation - is an interesting one. Tie that into his background, some kind of sacred belief or just a view that his former likeness was arrived at perfectly through the Augment program. It adds an extra dimension to his anger, and the extreme way he finally deals with Admiral Marcus. Despatching him with the line "You should have let me sleep."

    I'd have quite liked some visual reference to the Botany Bay being found, Khan being awoken after all that Section 31 had done and hallucinogenic images of activity in-between... Cover whatever controversy arises from such a backstory that way. Leave what's going on in the images being recalled by Khan up to interpretation.

    They wanted the Botany Bay to pop up after the credits for Star Trek (2009) ended. Would presumably have had to recreate its established look, in order for anybody to have got such a 'stay until the end' joke.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
  10. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wonder if BOrci will reference/tie up the CumberKhan dilemma in ST3? (onscreen not just comic book)
    e.g a brief nod to MontalKhan via Kirk or Spock checking out that Space Seed photo on a consol in the background etc
     
  11. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I doubt it. They'll probably just move on.
     
  12. Praxius

    Praxius Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well when someone uses a Plastic Surgery explanation as to why Khan looks different, then what happens when the Enterprise Crew reach the age of TOS crew and don't look the same?
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    No thank you.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. SPCTRE

    SPCTRE Badass Admiral

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    ^ Amen, brother.
     
  15. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Recently watched the Directors Cut of the Total Recall remake, in that Quaid gets a face surgery changing him from Ethan Hawke to Farrell. But in the theatrical version there's no face change as in the 1990 film. Anyway they could've done something like that for STID - filmed a brief flashback of Botany Bay discovery and Montalban getting surgery to Cumberbatch (or even a brief line maybe with a pic of Space Seed Khan), then maybe cut it out on the theatrical (so all the non fans minds wouldn't get confused), then reinstated it for a DC blu ray to please all us die hard fans instead of doing the comic(and it'd have been nice to have another DC of a trek film theres only been 3).
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The information isn't really needed by general audiences to enjoy the film and Trek fans tend to like to connect the dots on their own. We've been doing it for forty-nine years.

    Pocket Books has been doing it for a good thirty years.
     
  17. HIjol

    HIjol Admiral and Consummate Peacemaker Premium Member

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    All due respect from this Old-Timer, Dot-Connector, Well said, BillJ...well said!

    :techman:
     
  18. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Was about to start a new thread about this but then remembered this one..

    anyway this might be silly idea but picture this, Khan and Spock are locked in mortal combat trading blows on the trash hover carts over the streets of San Francisco. Khan has Spock in the head crush, Spocks going down. He desperately lashes out with his hand over Khans face. he grips on to something and pulls with all his Vulcan might. The ultra advanced MI style Harrison/Cumberbatch face mask khan is wearing is ripped off to reveal 1967 Ricardo Montalban Khan (via CG). "Well done Mr Spock" khan hisses (in Montalbans voice).

    The fight continues as was except with various brief glimpses of MontalKhan (like 'Arnie' T800 in T4) until uhura appears and stuns him. End scene is Space Seed Khan in the cryopod
     
  19. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Reminds me of the old idea about DS9: Trials and Tribble-ations that was mentioned on this forum: When the Defiant travels back in time, Worf suddenly appears without his ridges, the Defiant bridge controls start to look a bit more like TOS, and nobody speaks a single word on screen about this. No "These are Klingons?!", no "We don't talk about it", no augment virus in Enterprise.