Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Khan 2.0, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Why didnt they include the IDW Khan flashback in STID?

    Finally read the IDW Khan series graphic novel. Why couldn't they integrate the flashback discovery of the BB and Khans makeover in a brief scene with abit of CG Montalban? something similar to Spock Primes flashback mindmeld in ST09 wouldve worked great
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    While I've got nothing against an Eugenics War flashback and I'd have liked to see the SS Botany Bay, no face-swapping fanwank, please. As far as I'm concerned, Khan in Into Darkness always looked and sounded like Benadict Cumberbatch, in the same way Saavik in STIII always looked and sounded like Robin Curtis. They're all actors playing roles.
     
  3. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I give you Khan, but Saavik? I will never forgive them. I like both Saaviks very much, but I didn't take that change very well.

    On the other hand, I can't be bothered by Khan when the entire cast has changed.
     
  4. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    I wish the comics hadn't explained Khan's 'change'. For me, that took something away from Cumberbatch.

    Saavik... that's a really tough one, which my brain actively avoids... definitely a head in the sand approach. TWOK Saavik and TSFS/TVH Saavik are two different characters, who happen to share the same name. :scream:

    I LIKE them both. I just can't reconcile them into the same character.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    +1

    I steered clear of the IDW Khan series precisely because of the above.
     
  6. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

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    As much as I like Cumby, his Khan is too different a take, so I appreciate the plastic surgery explanation.

    A brief flashback would have been nice but I don't miss it. If I had to do a flashback though, I'd have done the sketchy type where we'd catch glimpses of Khan as he appeared upon waking in "Space Seed" but we wouldn't get a good look at his face. No CGI Montalban.
     
  7. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How does it take anything away? It just explains why he looks nothing like the guy from Space Seed ( or really anyone you're likely to find with a name like "Khan Singh" ). It also makes sense in context of the false Harrison identity - a smokescreen devised to conceal the truth - as described in the film. And as has been pointed out in another thread, the comic's treatment informs the "My name is Khan" scene in a way that is different from what is implied by the film alone, but that still doesn't take anything away from Cumberbatch.
     
  8. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    I'm not really much into that kind of fanwank, but it is somewhat suspicious that they change the name from Khan Noonien Singh to John Harrison instead of something like Kabir Malik.

    Personally, I would've liked to see a lot more flashback, but of course that doesn't really jive with how the movie was set up for the shock value reveal. It's probably for the best as any flashback would've likely showed the year, causing much consternation amongst fans.
     
  9. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    itd have worked ok in this case as the casting of BC was so different to RM plus the whole secret agent/concealing Khans identity thing

    alternatively I guess they could've had Khan allude to his face change - E.g. In the brig khan says Marcus gave him a new face....and/or had a brief scene of Spock using the ships computer to unearth a photo of Montalban - the same photo of Khan from the briefing room scene in Space Seed:
    [​IMG]
     
  10. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I do kind of wish there had been that visual reference of Montalban's Khan from the history books. I have issues accepting Cumberbatch playing a character with a surname implying a certain racial background. Illogical given the Mexican actor I associate with him but there you go. He was too strong to be shrugged off really. Wrath of Khan still a critically rated film that floats in serious polls. Space Seed referred back to, although whether or not it would have that classic status without it, is debatable. How they would've done it, and not stalled the whole film I frankly don't know. But I'd have liked to have seen it tried and dumped into Deleted Scenes if it didn't work.
     
  11. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    The new release of the two Abrams Trek films include previously unreleased deleted scenes. Maybe it'll be there (though probably not).
     
  12. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I doubt such a scene exists. Look at the Khan graphic novel. It came out in comic form after the film's release. It's as great as Countdown, while Into Darkness' prequel is pretty poor and has got nothing to do with anything. There was no time for some reason. Probably since they didn't know who's likeness to use in a backstory.

    They didn't write such a scene for the film, because Benedict Cumberbatch was cast pretty late in the day. They didn't need to since their initial idea was to recast closely to the original series actor, as had been done with the main cast. The shooting script nailed down tight, they were obviously waiting on those replies and suddenly coming up with a scene suggesting he'd ever looked completely different, not possible.

    If visual references or a flashback to Montalban's Khan were to happen... probably while Nimoy Spock gives his full name Khan Noonien Singh and breaks his promise not to give any information about his 23rd Century.

    Or else, when John Harrison is in the brig and speaks of his past. Images should've flashed by of a dark-haired younger Marcus boarding the Botany Bay with a security team, and Montalban Khan or somebody standing in for him at any rate, being discovered there. Shots of Doctors performing a surgical procedure and canisters being moved in a cargo bay, while Khan confesses to being used by Section 31, in return for the safety of his crew.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  13. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    itd have been in the brig after 'My name is Khan' - flashback like the mindmeld scene in ST09.

    seeing the USS Vanguard Reliant class ship (cool nod to TWOK) discovering the Botany Bay (looking exactly as it did in Space Seed), suited crew finding Khan (CG Montalban) in cryosleep like Ripley at start of Aliens (dark so no need to show 1960s Botany Bay interior), then we see Montalban Khan in medlab being transformed into BC Khan with Marcus watching behind glass

    literally about 1 minute of flashback (if that) as Cumberbatch delivers his speech
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  14. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I could see them doing that. Like the trippy 24th Century scenes of Nimoy on Romulus, leaving in the Jellyfish, being captured by Nero and getting stranded on Delta Vega.

    Or Newt's family backstory, cut from Aliens with the ship from the original film shown.

    The scene focused on Cumberbatch's crying face for absolutely ages and could've benefitted from being broken up and cut away from. My reaction is generally that's where the whole film disappears down the rabbit hole. It needed to show, as much as rely on the actor to tell us who he really is.

    Zero chance of doing that now though. :thumbdown:
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  15. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    yes exactly...had his VO over the flashback scenes..
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe? But then all I can think about is the hatchet job the director's cut of The Undiscovered Country was. With the faces of the conspirators popping up in the middle of what was a very emotional scene.

    I think I'd rather keep the flashbacks out of Into Darkness.
     
  17. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, mileage varies. But I think whoever they'd have cast as Khan... to me, that scene in the brig needed us to see more. More to sell the reveal about his actual name. More to counteract the John Harrison mould Cumberbatch's casting fits.

    It would've silenced the critique about possibly having kept him that way... a rogue Starfleet agent. Engineered or not.

    My attitude to that scene is, "Khan?!? Really? Prove it." And that must be so in the minds of the writers too. So much so, that later in the film they have to produce Nimoy Spock to back it up. Only suddenly saying his full name kind of compounds the issue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  18. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I don't know. In general, I don't think recastings require an in-universe explanation. And when you've already recast everybody else, it might seem odd to make a big deal out of one particular bit of recasting.

    Trying to explain why Cumberbatch doesn't look like Montalban just begs the question of why Pine doesn't look exactly like Shatner, why Pegg doesn't look exactly like Doohan, etc. Better not to raise the issue altogether.

    A willing suspension of disbelief can go a long ways . . . .
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    +1
     
  20. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But the crew cast in the main bear at least a passing resemblance to their original counterparts, which maintains the suspension of disbelief. Cumerbatch does not. At all. And neither does his portrayal of the character. It's one of the movies biggest problems.

    Having said that I love STID and still get a lot of enjoyment out of BC's performance, but it just seemed to almost undo the great work they'd put in in assembling the crew cast so well.