Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Search?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by cannicks, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. cannicks

    cannicks Lieutenant Junior Grade

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    Who gives a damn about free movement?

    Look, freedom is not even absolute as it stands.

    Had the Federation sealed the wormhole after The Search, then no Dominion War.

    And screw the Bajorans also. Why then does it matter if they whine about lack of access to the Prophets? So their religion must threaten the entire Alpha Quadrant?
     
  2. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    ^You've raised several issues, so I'll respond here.

    The Federation was interested in making Bajor a member in the near future. As such, it would not have been wise to alienate the Bajorans by cutting them off from their gods, nor would it have been prudent to remove an important avenue for trade and commerce that the Bajorans were using to rebuild their economy following the Cardassian Occupation.

    Starfleet was interested in exploring the Gamma Quadrant and hoped to continue doing so even after the Dominion was discovered. Mining the wormhole would have prevented that.

    Finally, there's no reason to believe that a small number of Changelings weren't already in the Alpha Quadrant by the time "The Search" took place. We know that they were "everywhere" by the end of the year, so it's possible that some members of the Great Link had already infiltrated various governments in the Alpha Quadrant. Mining the wormhole may not have stopped them from eventually bringing Jem'Hadar ships and troops into the AQ.

    --Sran
     
  3. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    Well they could have quite easily mined it with deactivated mines that could be turned on if a war started.


    That way they could have there cake and eat it .
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    Because it's the Federation. There was still the chance they could make nice with the Dominion and explore the Gamma Quadrant.
     
  5. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    I forget everyone has had the common sense part of there brain removed by the 23rd Century :lol:
     
  6. cannicks

    cannicks Lieutenant Junior Grade

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    Or the bible could be the unalterable word of God, who knows? Either point is valid.
     
  7. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    You forgetting something. The mines in and of themselves may have been interpreted as an act of aggression by the Federation and precipitated the war Starfleet wanted so desperately to avoid. Even if the Dominion had been trapped in the Gamma Quadrant, who's to say Starfleet's actions don't provoke the Klingons or the Romulans into starting a fight. It's pointed out in "Sons of Mogh" that mining a star system for any reason is an act of war. Why do something that undermines itself?

    --Sran
     
  8. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    I don't see what Christianity has to do with this, but carry on.

    --Sran
     
  9. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    But after the Die is cast I dont think anyone in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant would have minded especialy the Romulan and Cardassian who would have been scared witless of a counter attack.

    By this point war was more or less certain.
     
  10. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    That still doesn't address the other issues at work here.

    --Sran
     
  11. TenLubak

    TenLubak Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    That would be like blowing up a canal connecting two hard to reach places. Its useful to travel through, despite perhaps giving a shortcut to some enemy on the other end in a potential war one day.

    Plus what a mean thing to do to the Bajorians, blow up thier gods home.
     
  12. cannicks

    cannicks Lieutenant Junior Grade

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    Granted, but then does this mean the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, etc. should be slaves of the Dominion, just because the Bajorans want to keep their religion? Why is the Bajorans' need more pressing than the entire Alpha Quadrant's?

    As for an act of war, well in Call to Arms this was based on blockage of free transit. However in season 3, Cardassia hadn't joined the Dominion as yet, and there were no large regular convoys from the Gamma Quadrant to Cardassia Prime. By that reasoning, the attempt to collapse the wormhole in Season 5 would have been an act of war also. Also, the Prophets' own Emissary (of course Captain Ben) designated the plan himself to collapse it and the Bajorans largely agreed.

    I don't see why an entire quadrant must be threatened just because some whiny planet won't see their gods again. But then again, very few Bajorans ever had seen the Prophets or the wormhole. Let's presume that the Bajoran religion is 10 or 20000 years old. And in that time, of perhaps hundreds of millions or billions of Bajorans who lived in that time, very few were noted to have met/spoke with the Prophets or entered the wormhole itself. It also seemed that the Prophets would contact specific Bajorans with visions, or they would consult one of the Orbs. To mine the wormhole probably wouldn't have made that much difference in that regard.
     
  13. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc


    Still not seeing the problem.

    Deactivated mines round the wormhole would not effect the Klingons, Romulans,Cardassians. Infact I cant see why they would be against it as its does not affect them.

    I cant see why the Bajorans would be against it as if they are dormant they wont stop wormhole traffic. By the time they are needed and activated then Bajor would be in a situation were its that or be destroyed.

    They wont hurt the Wormhole either as they are just mines outside.



    The only person that would get pissy are the Dominion and by the time of The Die is cast war was more or less going to happen thanks to Cardassian and Romulan stupidity. I cant see how you could have made the founder more pissed off to be honnest. And even though the Federation had nothing to do with the attack we know the Dominion would still just lump the Federation with them anyway for just being solid.


    If I was in charge of Starfleet I would have mined it and given the activation codes to the Bajorans too to keep them happy and I would have pulled ten ships off Exploration dutys and stationed them at DS9 Alongside the Defiant to deter some power trying to sieze the station like in way of the warrior. O and I would have assigned a experianced admiral from the border wars to DS9 too seeing as its such a hugely important post.


    Hey look I just stopped the most destructive war in Federation history :lol:

    But seeing as I have common sense and logic I doubt I would have made it past the acadermy entrance exam :lol: And even if I did Im most likley not corrupt and useless enough to get to Admiral anyway let alone Head of Starfleet.
     
  14. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    No one said that it is, and as the Federation did eventually attempt to close the wormhole, it's clear that they didn't think any misgivings expressed by Bajor were worth risking the safety of their government. Having said that, taking an action as drastic as placing mines or collapsing the wormhole entrance isn't something anyone should do unless all other options have been exhausted.

    No, it wasn't. The mines were placed to prevent the Dominion from increasing the size of their fleet in the Alpha Quadrant.

    No, it wouldn't. Placing mines in a star system is an act of war, not collapsing a wormhole with the use of deflector technology. You're talking about two completely different things. As to why the mines were finally placed in "A Call to Arms," Sisko concluded that war was already inevitable and that placing the mines was necessary for the safety of the Federation.

    Not entirely accurate. Kira voiced several concerns during the briefing where it was talked about. Sisko responded by telling her that it was a better option than Bajor being attacked by a Dominion fleet. He wasn't making the decision as the Emissary but as a Starfleet officer.

    Once again, no one is making that argument. As the Federation decided to try collapsing the wormhole and later to place mines near the entrance, they demonstrated that they were ultimately more concerned with the quadrant's safety than they were about any backlash from the Bajorans.

    That said, remember that almost three years had passed since first contact with the Dominion. The Bajorans had a much better understanding of the threat they represented. Their relationship with the Federation was also much stronger, so it's likely that they were much more willing to follow any plan Starfleet came up with.

    --Sran
     
  15. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    They didn't just destroy the entrance to the wormhole because they thought they always had the option of doing so.
     
  16. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    You're missing the point. It's not the mines themselves that are the issue but how their placement would be perceived by other powers. There's no way to know how the Romulans or Klingons would have felt about the Federation making such a bold move. They were willing to allow mine placement in "A Call to Arms," but the Klingons were committed to assisting the Federation in any war effort by that time, and the Romulans had recently signed a non-agression pact with the Dominion and would not have been affected by Starfleet's decision.

    Had similar action been taken following "The Search," it's not entirely clear how either government would have reacted. The Tal Shiar took part in a joint operation with the Obsidian Order, but that venture wasn't sanctioned by either party's government. The Klingons were frightened enough of the Dominion that they were prepared to attack Cardassia by 2372 (before their alliance with the Dominion was conceived). Who's to say they wouldn't have attacked the Federation for assuming such an aggressive stance.

    Why would Starfleet place mines near the wormhole and not activate them? That completely defies the point of having the mines in the first place. They're not useful unless they're active. There would be no delay in setting them, so there would be no chance for the Bajorans (or anyone else) to use the wormhole until the mines were removed.

    There's no way to know that. A large explosion could have damaged the entrance, making travel through the wormhole more difficult.

    Rubbish. If that's the case, why did it take a full two years following that attack for the Dominion to finally go after the Federation? Why send a series of Changeling infiltrators into the Alpha Quadrant to create unrest and instability if an attack has already been set into motion? Seems like a huge waste of resources, IMO.

    Again, the mines would have been activated as soon as they were in position. There would have been no reason to give the codes to the Bajorans, regardless of what they thought about it. Besides, allowing such sensitive information to be given to a non-Federation government would have risked the codes falling into the wrong hands. Would you give your neighbor your credit card number? No one with a shred of common sense would do something so risky.

    As to your second point, Sisko was the commander of Deep Space 9 and had proven himself to be more than capable of making difficult decisions when pressed to do so. Why would Starfleet undermine his authority by sending an admiral to supervise the station? Again, that's a waste of resources and defeats the purpose of Sisko being aboard the station.

    --Sran
     
  17. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    But its not there space or near there space with the exception of the Cardassians. It could not hurt them in anyway, only benifit them in defence.

    The Fact it had not been sanctioned means little to the Dominion. After that incident it was clear they viewed the alpha Quadrent as threat.
    That makes no sense? If the Klingons were scared of the Dominion why would they take offence the Federation takeing pre emptive meassures againt the enemy they are scared of.
    Hell they wanted to take the station seeing as the Federation were not doing enough. Federation inactivity could be argued to have caused klingon suspcion!




    Well no you keep them deactivated so you can keep travel going until the war breaks out or incase some miracle happens and wars averted.


    Well as we see in Call to arms when they would be activated would be the point were Travel would be a no issue due to domnion ships blowing anything up there side.

    Well they mined it eventually anyway. And its why you keep them deactvated unless needed as it stops accidents.

    The unrest and instability was planned to weaken the quadrent and create pontential allies to start a foot hold like the Cardies before they started a war.

    It called diplomatic Good will seeing as it was there space and there wormhole. Make them seem like parters or they could get annoyed.
    Because it is one of the most vital stations in the Alpha/Beta Quadrent. No I would no have undermined his authority as I would have removed him from command and given him another asignment or better yet promoted him to admiral. He seemed pretty capable in that role anyway as a staff captain under Ross. Plus a Admiral you could have given him another few ships which would have come in handy a few times.
     
  18. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    For the same reason GB, France, etc had as policy towards Germany appeasement during the '30.
    To have 'peace in their times'.
     
  19. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    Not the issue, as it's not about who claims the territory itself. Imagine that your neighbor has decided to stockpile weapons in his basement because he's worried that the person living on the opposite side of his house will attack him. Would that not make you uncomfortable? Even if the weapons might keep the other person at bay for the time being, you'd have no way of knowing how your neighbor would use the weapons if and when the threat subsided. What's to stop him from coming after you? What if the weapons cause an accident that damages his house and puts yours at risk?

    That's my point. Neither the Romulans nor the Klingons could have known how the Federation's decision would have impacted them later. They may have kept the Dominion out of the area, but there's no telling how things already happening in the Alpha Quadrant would have been affected by the move. People were dependent on the wormhole for acquiring new resources. Removing that option may have precipitated an economic crisis within another government, driving that government to take drastic action to support itself, even waging war against another civilization.

    And they waited two more years to do anything about that threat, and only took that action because they believed the Federation's actions were too aggressive to be ignored.

    Read my paragraphs at the beginning of this post. I see no reason to repeat my answers here.

    Incorrect. They wanted the Cardassian Detapa Council members and were willing to use force to get them off Deep Space 9. They didn't care about the station or they'd have returned with a larger fleet later.

    You're wrong. Watch "A Call to Arms" again. The mines were activated the moment they were placed. There is no sense in having a large number of mines near a critical region of space if they're not being used.

    There would be no accidents because no traffic would be allowed through the wormhole at all.

    Which only proves my point. If they were planning to attack following "The Die is Cast" as you claim, they would not have bothered trying to weaken their opponents through acts of subterfuge first. The Dominion was a vast interstellar empire with thousands of ships and troops at its disposal. If they'd wanted to attack the Alpha Quadrant in 2371, they'd have done so. That they were willing to bide their time and use other tactics indicates that they weren't sure about starting a war until they'd gotten a better sense of the threats in the Alpha Quadrant.

    Even allies and partners don't share every one of their secrets. I'll ask again: would you share your credit card number with your neighbor? Revealing vital information such as mine activation codes would have been the worst thing the Federation could have done. It's not about making the Bajorans feel like partners. They already were partners in that they were helping Starfleet run DS9. It's possible Kira would have known the codes as the station's first officer, but she would not have been permitted to take that information back to her government. It would have been too risky.

    Deep Space 9 remained one of the most important space stations in the Alpha Quadrant during the Dominion War, and Sisko stayed in command. Removing him as captain would not only have undermined his authority but it would have meant the end of his tenure as the station's commanding officer. Yet you're arguing that you would do so to avoid that problem? That makes absolutely no sense.

    And had he been promoted to admiral, there would have been no need for a second admiral to preside over the station. Assigning two flag officers to do the same job is a complete waste of valuable personnel, which is absolutely the wrong thing to do in a combat situation.

    --Sran
     
  20. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

    Precisely correct and said much more eloquently than anything I've posted. The most important responsibility a military officer has is to preserve the peace. Even actions intended as defensive measures have the potential to incite a war, so decisions about such actions must be weighed carefully before they're made and implemented.

    --Sran
     

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