Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Fastwalker, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Fastwalker

    Fastwalker Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    So Lal v1.0 was a success and a failure at the same time. Lal exceeded Data expectations:

    1. using contractions
    2. feeling fear
    3. feeling love
    4. turning Riker into a bumbling idiot at 10-Forward

    Data failed with Lal v1.0 when her positronic brain couldnt handle the stress that StarFleet may take her away from her father.

    Why didnt Data attempt another pass at making Lal v2.0. Afterall, Data is the last of his kind. I doubt there'll be more B-4s laying around the galaxy for Data to find conveniently before sacrificing himself for the greater good.

    Already Data has a head start. Lal v1.0's memories are still in Data's head. He could've built another android and research and fix the problem. If Lal v2.0 failed, then try Lal v3.0, v4.0, etc. Even with success, make more androids, like Data's son, named Lol (pun intended... LOL!)

    To stress my question again: Why did Data give up trying after the first attempt? Hello, Data! You fell off your positronic horse. So what? Get your narrow, artificial ass back up on that horse.
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Likely because he didn't find a solution to the problem that made her not work.
     
  3. gastrof

    gastrof Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Also, didn't he promise his mother he wouldn't?

    Juliana Soong saw Lal's photo, found out who the girl in the picture was, and asked Data to promise her he'd never try to create another android ever again.
     
  4. Fastwalker

    Fastwalker Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    REALLY?! I don't remember that part in the episode. I'll have to rewatch the episode. If true, then that's a horrible thing for Julian to say to Data. Bad mom!

    Data should've continued his attempts at "procreating". Even tho Data didn't find the error in Lal, he should've created another android and use different types of "parenting".
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you consider Data a sentient life form and thus any offspring he creates similarly sentient that is a grossly irresponsible thing to suggest.

    One, I would believe most parents would agree with you that you shouldn't have a child if you can't ensure their safety. In this case if a child is going to die due to an error that you can't resolve on your part, bringing another child into the world you know to die would be morally questionable at best.

    Unless you're suggesting that these "disposable" chlidren shoudl just be platforms for experimentation on his "parenting" in which case I'd find that even more morally dubious turning them in effect into guinea pigs. Either way I don't see it as something Data would do again until he's certain he cold resolve the issue.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Most parents, if queried, would probably agree. But most parents, in actual fact, would probably not hold back on such grounds. About 100% of children born today are born without reasonable safety guarantees, and are very likely to die at a young age.

    Morals and procreation are rather mightily disconnected in the human case - it takes something the magnitude of religion to connect them, and that's very seldom related to the rights or well-being of the child in any way. Perhaps Data wants to be human in this respect as well?

    Although Data probably doesn't see any hurry. We could just as well ask why he stopped dating after "In Theory". Being an android, he'd simply still have plenty of time to break all of Casanova's records, even counting in his apparent "aging subroutine".

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. T'Preea

    T'Preea Commander Red Shirt

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    The reason Julianna Soong made Data promise her that he wouldn't try again was that even though Data doesn't "feel" in the same context that we do, she knew that if it failed yet again; she knew that he would take the loss as a hurt in his own way, and from her own experiences with losing her "children"; she didn't want Data to "feel" that loss again.
     
  8. Fastwalker

    Fastwalker Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I disagree. If all parents thought the same way, the human race would've never gone past caves.

    What do you think about children with fatal illnesses? Should those parents give up on those kids and euthanize them? What about children born with disabilities? Should Geordi LaForge's parents give up on him because he was born blind and will have a harder time growing up? Should parents give up getting pregnant because they had a misborn?

    No. Parents would do their best to find a cure or make those kids' lives as fruitful as possible. Life doesn't give up. And neither should Data.

    Just because Data had problems with his first child he shouldn't give up. Results will vary with proceeding offsprings. We can't assume Lal v2.0 will have the same complications as Lal v1.0. Is it possible for Lal v2.0 to go thru the exact same events as Lal v1.0 did? No.

    There'd be a lot more support from StarFleet to ensure Lal v2.0 is successful. Data will have Commander Bruce Maddox, Vice Admiral Anthony Haftel, and all of his friends, giving their full support and resources.

    As for Julianna Soong's remark, I need to find time to watch that episode again.
     
  9. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I suppose that depends on what you term young?! :eek:
     
  10. K'kaHn

    K'kaHn Cadet Newbie

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    It seems very arrogant of Data to give up after one failure. to do so suggests that he thought he would succeed in one try where his father had failed i believe it was four times before finally creating a relatively successfull android.
     
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How's that arrogant again? From an android standpoint it makes perfect sense. At the beginning of the episode he thought he had away around the technobabble issues that prevented people from making more Soong type androids. He tried the method, it didn't work. So until he finds another method around it, why would he try again knowing it won't work?
     
  12. Fastwalker

    Fastwalker Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    How can you assume it won't work again? There were a number of human factors that caused Lal v1.0's failure. Again, creating Lal v2.0 would have a more positive environment than Lal v1.0 had. Like I said in my previous post, Data would receive support and resources from his well-placed and -connection contacts:

    • Commander Bruce Maddox
    • Vice Admiral Anthony Haftel
    • Crew of the Enterprise-D/E
    • Lieutenant Reginald Barclay
    • and various friends Data has made in the past
    Back to the OP. Gastrof probably has the best answer why Data didn't make Lal v2.0:

    Why Juliana made such a request still puzzles me? What a shame Data agreed. Because I don't know if I can accept T'Preea's answer.
     
  13. T'Preea

    T'Preea Commander Red Shirt

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    ^You don't have to accept my answer. These discussions are mere speculation. I gave my two cents just as everyone else has.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maddox probably would and is trying to make a new Soong type android. Data doesn't really factor into the equation save as an end or maybe a means to an end being he wanted to take him apart to somehow reverse engineer him. ((Maybe that's what happened to Lore? :p )) Sure Data exchanged letters with him, but that seemed more akin to Data being polite than any genuine partnership. Certainly he didn't call him up when he made Lal, so why would he do so with any future projects? The guy's a jerk, and we're not even sure how smart he is given he couldn't even provide basic details as to WHY he thought taking Data apart would be the magic hand wave to make more androids. Data didn't think he knew what he was talking about.

    Admiral Haftel tried and failed to fix Lal too. By all accounts her posatronic matrix just wasn't stable and that was what Maddox couldn't duplicate either. As moved as he was at the end of the episode, he had no problem yanking her out of Data's custody as a guinea pig. So he'd likely sign off on a future android, with or without Data.

    As for Barclay? He never showed any aptitude towards robotics really. Given his experience with holodeck programing he likely could write up an android's software with the best of them, but Lal's problems were with her hardware.

    As for Data's other acquaintances? Only Geordi really had any experience in the field, and that was from working with Data/Lore/B4. He's on record saying he couldn't duplicate it either, even though he didn't really put any effort into the project.

    Again, it comes back down to the fundamental problem why Lal didn't work. Her hardware was faulty. Data found a new method at some robotics seminar that he thought might work. He tried it, it didn't. So unless a new method presents itself, why is he going to try again with a method that's proven not to work? None of the people you mentioned really are going to get around her hardware issues.
     
  15. Fastwalker

    Fastwalker Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Okay, T'Preea. I watched "Inheritance" episode twice. Julianna didn't ask Data to make any promises, especially about making another android offspring. The episode revealed following information:

    • There were 3 previous androids built before Lore
    • Julianna treated each android like her own child
    • Each android iteration had little chances of survival
    • Julianna wanted to stop making more androids but Soong won and made Lore and Data
    • Julianna was against Data's creation
    • Julianna was guilt ridden over making Soong leave Data behind despite room in escape pod
    • Julianna was afraid Data would be like Lore (evil)
    • When asked, Julianna almost admitted she would never leave Data if he were her biological child
    • If Data made an offspring, he would no longer be alone, which Troi knows how much this means to him

    Based on the above information, Data should realize creating a stable offspring isn't as easy as shake-n-bake. It'll take time and, most likely, a number of tries.
     
  16. Fastwalker

    Fastwalker Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Maddox may be a jerk. But he became a supporter for Data. In "The Measure of a Man", Maddox may seem stupid defending his argument. Yet, later he was later referred as an expert on fixing Data in the episode "Contagion". Also, if you count non-canon content, Maddox is not as dumb as you think. He later becomes Chairman of Robotics at the Daystrom Institute of Technology. Who together with Barclay attempts to create a new type of android by combining holographics and positronic brain (aka holotronic brain). Finally, Maddox successfully argued in front of the Federation President and Judiciary Council proving B-4 was a sentient being and should not be disassembled. So, YES, Maddox can help Data with his support and resources. You can read these events at Memory Alpha and Beta. Just search for "Bruce Maddox".

    How does that negate the possibility of Haftel helping Data if requested? As for yanking Lal's body, where at the end of “The Offspring” episode does Haftel demanded to take Lal's body AFTER he helped Data? You may wanna rewatch that episode – I did... twice. Haftel's last words were, “It just wasn't meant to be.”

    I agree Haftel would jump to assist in developing another android with or without Data. But, I bet Haftel would assist Data if the request was made. And what better ally to have than an Admiral with guilt or sympathy..

    See my above response to Bruce Maddox. Barclay did team up with Maddox to develop a holotronic brain. Based on that, I'm sure Barclay can help Data.

    I don't understand what you're saying about Geordi. Are you saying Geordi could never duplicate a positronic brain? I doubt it. Give it time... Like in 2385, Geordi takes a “long-term leave of absence” from StarFleet to work with the Soong Foundation to study B-4. (See Geordi's entry in Memory Beta.)

    Well, the world, or universe, never stops spinning. Progress continues and who knows if someone, like Data or any one mentioned previously, comes up with a solution. Like a holotronic brain.

    Too bad the original Data is dead. But, I like to believe he was resurrected as said in the “Star Trek: Countdown” comic book – prequel story that leads up to the Star Trek XI reboot story (aka, nuTrek).
     
  17. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    ^This. The method he used was to use core dumps from his own matrix. I got the impression he was trying to use himself as a source for duplicating himself, a method no one had ever tried, & worth the try

    That's not exactly why she crashed. At least as the plot depicts it, she had already begun to exhibit aberrations... in using contractions, & then in feeling emotions. As she was an offshoot of Data's programming, that shouldn't have happened. The interference of Starfleet just added an influence which exacerbated the failure of an unstable matrix, which is why nobody in the episode ends up putting blame on the admiral. He didn't cause it. He just made it worse, faster.

    So Data didn't succeed. It was an unexplained failure of an experimental technique, & presumably he was never able to reconcile the technique such that the same problem was no longer a threat

    It's not just science but also healthcare. The 1st rule of healthcare is "Do No Harm" & to deliberately create a sentient life form which has every potential of not surviving is more harmful than it is good. Without solving the aberrations which led to the cascade failure issue, it's immoral to attempt it again. It's similar to the reason Picard doesn't want to make more holograms like Moriarty

    It was back to the drawing board for Data, because ultimately there were problems with his technique. However, I do believe he should have tried again though, but not with this technique, unless it was rectified

    The problem is, at some point in his Starfleet career, he should have decided to spearhead his own cybernetics endeavor, enlisting people like Bruce Maddox to work alongside him, or finding a way to get command over that branch of Starfleet sciences. It's evident he is as much an expert in it than anyone else in Starfleet. They should be working together

    It's clear Data was not going to allow himself to become a guinea pig. So, Starfleet should have finally just trusted him to work on the project himself. I think there's trust issues there though, because Data is the one best asset in knowing what Soong did. There might always be the threat that someone might try to force him to be experimented on

    So the result is he has to research it unilaterally
     
  18. Bones_McCoy21

    Bones_McCoy21 Commander Red Shirt

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    Honestly I think it was because he couldn't take Lal's "death" even if he can't feel emotions I don't think he could bring himself to created another version of his daughter whom he "loved".
     
  19. Captain McBain

    Captain McBain Captain Captain

    I never understood why Data couldn't succeed at making an android. In "A Measure of a Man," there's a certain problem in building a positronic net that Data relays to Commander Maddox while in the observation lounge. My question is why Data didn't copy his own design exactly---as a working android, his design obviously allows for a functioning android---so why not use this precise blueprint for Lal?
     
  20. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    That's exactly what he did, & apparently achieved a certain amount more success than Maddox ever did

    The way Maddox seemed to believe was that the only true way to identify all the specific properties involved in Data's positronic matrix was to dissemble it & essentially study it in a non-functioning state

    & since Lal faltered, perhaps there's some truth to that notion, even if it's not worthwhile to do so, & jeopardize Data's life

    What boggles my mind more is that Soong would have to know he wouldn't live forever, & with the success of Data, he should have bestowed upon him every single bit of design parameters on the properly functioning Soong type android

    All the research should be IN Data's memory banks!