Why didn't Chang challenge Gorkon?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Noddy, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Chang didn't challenger him because he didn't want to be Chancelor. He preferred to stay in the shadows while manipulating Gorkon's daughter.
     
  2. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
     
  3. jpv2000

    jpv2000 Captain Captain

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    :rofl::guffaw::rofl:
     
  4. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Captain Captain

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    That phrasing makes me uncomfortable. Do the Klingons have a version of the FBI we can call?
     
  5. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    Probably, but they break down your door without knocking first, and then they sic the Klingon mastitis on you.
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Basically the Klingons hadn't become one dimensional society just yet. Sure they were a warrior like group of people, and weren't afraid to mix it up, but every aspect of their culture didn't revolve around being a warrior like the 90's era made them out to be.
     
  7. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    The 60s series made them seem untrustworthy...
     
  8. Retu

    Retu Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If Chang had challenged Gorkon and eventually killed him, the end result might very well have been a civil war. That would have weakened the Empire even further. And when you consider that the Romulans seemed to be in a pretty friendly relationship with the Federation, appearing weak in front of your enemies is not something you want.

    Better tactic was to make Federation responsible. An external threat has a funny way to unite a nation against a foreign foe.
     
  9. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    I got the impression that Gorkon was a rather populair Chancellor, and under his rule things started to change already. If Chang had won in a duel, a lot of people who supported Gorkon's ideas of improved relations between the UPF and the Empire would not support Chang and his visions for the Empire. He realized this all to well.

    What he needed to do, was re-affirm the Federation as an enemy of the Empire. Framing one of the Federation's greatest hero's, James Kirk, for the murder of Gorkon (who was appereantly quite open for better relations between the Empire and the Federation) would make sure the Empire would rally against the UFP.
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Yeah, ST V seemed to show a bit of a warming between the UFP and the Klingons after the chill of the Genesis incident. So maybe TUC was building on that assumption. Although it seemed to ignore any such warming on Kirk's part, making him uncharacteristically bigoted toward the Klingons.
     
  11. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I've always wondered of something happened between TFF and TUC that could explain Kirk's hatred so much. Ofcourse, a Klingon killing his son can be seen as a reason, but we've always been given reason to believe that in the 23rd century, humanity was beyond such petty behavior, hating an entire species for the action of one individual. So Kirk's attitude in TUC was a bit strange.

    That being said, TUC is still one of my favorite movies.
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^The novelization of TUC depicted a Klingon raid on the colony where Carol Marcus was living, badly injuring her and inflaming new hatred in Kirk. But it was an awkward patch for, frankly, a bad bit of screenwriting.
     
  13. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    Quite so. Personally, I can't think of anything that could alter Kirk's perspective of Klingons so much.
     
  14. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I don't know. The idea that, on Star Trek, future people are much more enlightened and "beyond" petty human imperfections applies more to TNG than TOS, where people were a bit rougher around the edges. Remember Stiles getting all racist on Spock in "Balance of Terror," or Kirk letting his past traumas get the better of him in "Obsession" or "Conscience of the King"? Or McCoy losing his temper every other episode?

    As the show reminded us all the time, humanity was still a half-savage child race with a long way to go . . . and the crew of the Starship Enterprise were hardly supposed to be a perfect paragons and role models with no flaws or dark sides. (Heck, "The Enemy Within" demonstrated that Kirk's more primitive impulses were a big part of what made him an effective captain.)

    Kirk spent his entire career fighting the Klingons, who were also responsible for the destruction of his ship and the murder of his only son. It's only human that he would hold a grudge-- and that a brief, uneasy alliance in TFF would hardly heal all his scars.

    As Carol Marcus once observed, Jim Kirk was no Boy Scout . . . .
     
  15. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    Good points, I agree with some of it. But then again, Kirk was never portrait as a bigot before, somebody who had problems with people from another species just because of them belonging to said species. So that was a bit odd to me.
     
  16. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Well, it could argued that it wasn't a racial thing as much as a lifelong-adversaries thing. Remember, the Klingons (in TOS terms) are basically the Russians during the Cold War. So Kirk wasn't opposed to the Klingons because of their species ("damn those bumpy-headed bastards!") but because the Klingons have always been the enemy of the Federation and he's learned from hard experience that they're aren't to be trusted. He's suspicious of their government, their military, and their culture, not their race.

    Besides, he's surely lost plenty of redshirts to the Klingon aggression . . . and he's usually quick to assume the worst of them back in the original TV series. Indeed, back on TOS, a Klingon showing up was NEVER a good sign.

    Watch out for that poisoned grain!
     
  17. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    One of many covert Klingon schemes foiled by the Federation during that time period. Darvin's failure was a disgrace. But it paved the way for a great DS9 episode.

    I also like what happened in Ship of the Line, when Kirk and Spock responded to Bateson's comm buoy and found the Klingons trying to make a sneak attack on a Federation outpost near the Typhon Expanse.

    --Sran
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    But that's exactly why he would never, ever say "Let them die." That's the statement of a racist who wants the whole species to go extinct. It's so massively out of character that Shatner resisted saying the line at all, and did all he could to soften it, to show that Kirk regretted saying it.


    But he was also the one who reached out to Mara and tried to convince her there was a better way than war between their peoples.
     
  19. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I always saw the "Let them die!" line as an emotional outburst, not a statement of policy. And certainly Kirk proves by the end of the movie that, ultimately, he's capable of looking beyond his own history and emotional demons--just as, indeed, he did in "Day of Dove."

    People are complicated. I'm sure that, back during the Cold War, that there were plenty of American soldiers that hated the Russians in the abstract, but we're still capable of seeing the humanity of the enemy as well.

    Kirk isn't always right all the time, and was certainly capable of letting his emotions get the better of him on occasion, but his higher angels always prevail in the end.
     
  20. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That was exactly that. I know Shatner fought hard for a reaction shot of Kirk recognizing what he just said. But Meyer chose to show Spock instead.

    Kirk said "Let them die" after he just learned that Starfleet was going to be dismantled, that Spock walked over his helmet and that his potentially last assignment was dealing with the Klingons.

    It was an emotional outburst, nothing more.


    What I don't understand is that people completely overlook the fact that Kirk overcame his racism, mistrust and hatred against the Klingons. That was the whole point. Instead they mostly point at the let them die and then complain that it was out of character. He is very well in character at the end of the film again.