Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Captain Shatner, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Who said he wanted to? Wasn't this just an illusion to tempt him to wanting to stay on Talos IV?

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Christopher_Pike
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    From http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/1.htm:
    That foreshadows two of the illusions right there, and they had just discussed the fight on Rigel VII, a third.
     
  3. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    Now i get it thanks, i certainly hope just wanted to make a point.
     
  4. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Sure, but he doesn't say that's what he wants to do, just that he could, if he so chose. And, even if he was a trader on Orion, it's the doc who anticipates that he means trading in slaves.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Yeah, I'm sure there are many forms of "business... on the Orion colony" other than slave trading; Boyce just jumped to the most infamous one in order to ridicule Pike's suggestion. Or to make the point that even if he tried to open a legitimate business there, he'd be working alongside the likes of slave traders and other illicit professions, so it would be a disreputable place to go into business.
     
  6. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Beats and the Shouting Moderator

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    And of course we learn later on Enterprise that the Orion "slave women" were not really slaves after all.
     
  7. BoredShipCapt'n

    BoredShipCapt'n Commodore Commodore

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    "They were talking to me! To ME, Steve!"

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  8. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think we have to be cautious about forming too rigid a view of any actor in his first appearance in any role. It takes a lot of them a little time to get to grips with the character and indeed writers may not always have decided where they're going with that character.

    I earlier used the example of Picard coming across as edgier and less confident in Encounter at Fairpoint and I think that Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew improved as Sisko and Janeway respectively as time went on.

    I don't know if it's true or not but I've heard that in Doctor Who, the producers usually film the first episode in which viewers will see the new actor make his first full appearance out of sequence. That is to say, for example, Matt Smith would have filmed a couple of episodes before filming The Eleventh Hour, his Doctor's first full episode, so as to allow him time to get used to the role and find his feet; the producers know how crucial that first episode is and how much weight viewers will put on it, so they want the actor to be settled in it.

    Obviously this couldn't have happened with The Cage or indeed most US tv pilot episodes which, unlike DW, don't have the luxury of knowing that there'll be a full series at the end of it.
     
  9. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    My point was that Orion wasn't "just an illusion to tempt him to wanting to stay on Talos IV," insofar as that it and the other illusions weren't indiscriminately chosen. Every illusory scenario he experienced was drawn from his own mind.

    But there is an additional point that I didn't state. The Orion illusion scene according to http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/1.htm is:
    The point being made in the dialog is that Pike is being tempted not necessarily with this particular illusion, but rather with the possibility that he can experience any reality that he might desire - with Vina.

    Given what Vina said in the horse illusion, it's reasonable to assume that she's right about him: he's curious about Orion because it represents a lifestyle that he can't have.

    So yeah, I do agree with the point that Orion is not necessarily, or even really, what he wants. But I was never trying to suggest that it was.
     
  10. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Good point. If you watch the very first CSI episode, they haven't quite got Grissom's character down yet. He occasionally throws a "punk" up against a wall and mouths pretty standard TV-cop dialogue. The bemused eccentricity was something they developed more later.

    And I think I remember reading an interview with Nimoy where he talks about finally getting a handle on Spock.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    And that's my whole point about Kirk -- that in the early first season, they were basically writing him as the exact same character that Pike was, just with his name changed -- a serious, brooding career officer with no time for women ("Mudd's Women"), a discomfort with being assigned a female yeoman ("The Corbomite Maneuver"), a longing for freedom from the discipline of his command ("The Naked Time"), and a tendency toward self-doubt which required pep talks from his doctor/friend ("Balance of Terror"). He only later evolved into the Kirk we know as Shatner's performance (and probably network pressure to make him a more conventional, accessible, womanizing action hero) affected how the character was written.
     
  12. Bubbles McGee

    Bubbles McGee Lieutenant Commander

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    Right, but Nimoy does say something about Hunter wanting movie deals. It is during one of the interviews from the box set that came out in 2003 or so; the Yellow, Blue, and Red plastic box sets.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Well, interviews conducted decades after the fact aren't always completely accurate. Not long ago I saw an interview where Nimoy talked about his Mission: Impossible tenure, and he misremembered or forgot a lot of things.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Then again, one plausible sequence of events is this:

    * Pike seriously considers doing reputable trading on Orion, there being nothing exotic about it as such.
    * Boyce makes fun of this, pointing out that Orion is also home to disreputable things (or then not - perhaps it's just a comical stereotype, like everybody from Louisiana making moonshine for celebrating marrying his daughter).
    * Pike ignores the jab, but his subconscious absorbs it.
    * When called forth, the subconscious is eager to embrace the idea of Pike as an Orion slave trader, quite regardless of whether such things even exist for real.

    Orion slave trade doesn't get any further mention in aired Star Trek; rather, it gets a prequel of sorts in ENT. Perhaps the phenomenon was in the distant past already when Pike was born?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    I'm willing to assume that we are supposed to believe that the so-called slave trade exists contemporaneously with Pike and that he and Boyce have both heard about it from reputable sources. I never had any doubt about that; still don't.
     
  16. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    I've read that Hunter didn't pursue the series because he wanted to act in movies, but that's not quite the same thing as him dropping the job because Desilu couldn't get him movie roles. Desilu didn't produce motion pictures; as far as I know, they were exclusively a television outfit.
     
  17. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Hunter was more interested in forging his career on the big screen, rather than television. However, I've seen several sources say that his wife was the one who was the aggressive deal maker and essentially demanded too much for his return to do the 2nd pilot. Some speculate this was an intentional move, so that he wouldn't be locked into a TV series contract and instead have the freedom to do movies. Why not decline simply because you're not interested? You then have to deal with the bartering to try convincing the producers otherwise. By making an unreasonable financial demand, it short circuited the process <-- that's my speculation.
     
  18. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    I thought she just told Desilu that he wasn't interested returning; I don't recall her asking for too much money.
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Yes -- and they were barely that. As of 1964, the only TV series they still produced was The Lucy Show; otherwise they survived by renting out their studio facilities to other production companies. Star Trek was part of an ambitious plan by new Desilu VP Herb Solow to bring the studio back into more active TV production. Solow developed four series projects for Desilu: Star Trek, Mission: Impossible, The Long Hunt of April Savage, and Mannix. They all went to series except April Savage, which was picked up by ABC but then dropped after the pilot film when the creator pulled out due to a dispute with his agency.



    What Solow reported in Inside Star Trek is that Hunter's wife simply came to a screening of the pilot to which Hunter had been invited and informed the producers that he had no interest in doing a second pilot. No demand for more money, just a straight-up refusal. And it wasn't clear from Solow's description whether she was the decision-maker there or simply the messenger. What are your other sources, and do they say otherwise?
     
  20. Zaku

    Zaku Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I believe that these are the sources mentioned. :)

    From: http://www.williamshatner.com/PNphpBB2-printview-t-520-start-0.phtml