Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    TOS movies are generally better recieved, in my opinion, due to their sense of family and themes of friendship and loyalty that TNG-as films,mind you-seldom were able to convey in quite the same way.
     
  2. TerragonSix

    TerragonSix Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Well...

    I won't say ANY of the ST movies I watched suck. Won't do it, because they all did have redeeming qualities.

    TMP: Return to what we like to see. We see that Captain Kirk is infallible after all, and the obsession with his ship is still left over from TOS. Interesting storyline between Decker (another throwback to TOS 'Doomsday Machine' and Illia. We see McCoy essentially unchanged, and Spock who tries to be fully logical, can't do it, because that's not all what he is. Only thing I really didn't like was the plot twist of 'Voyager VI -V'ger' (By the way, interesting that the TOS movies were six movies; weird coincidence) Grade: B

    TWOK: One of my favorites of the series. We see Kirk getting older, Kobiashi Maru, return of Khan. Genesis device is an interesting thing to base the story on, as well as the discovery that Kirk has a son. Great action sequences, lots of drama, humor. Shatner in particular does some of his best Kirk here. Some parts of the movie were hokey when they shouldn't have been, such as the death scene of Scotty's nephew (which was made up Scotty afterward, saying how proud he was of his nephew that he never left his post). Spock's death scene was well done. Grade: B+

    TSFS: I got to admit, it seemed like this movie was made to allow Spock back into the franchise. Why the hell would Kirk shoot his body onto a planet without consulting Starfleet or the planet Vulcan? I still like it, how McCoy endured having two minds, Kirk choosing to hijack a ship, Christopher Lloyd as a Klingon, Kirk's son dying, it was all pretty good. Seeing the Enterprise destroyed achieved its desired effect. It was pretty well done. Grade: B

    TVH: Most popular movie in the series. Has a kids feel, very non-violent, more along the lines of a classical science fiction tale. Good acting all around. Not my particular favorite, but hey, good movie. Well... the whole 'alien ship talking to whales thing' was a bit hokey, but hey, this is Star Trek, and hokey is just part of the game. Grade: B

    TFF: Well... I can say I can see why a lot of people dislike this movie. It's not my particular favorite. But, it does have redeeming qualities...Barely. Sybok is Spock's half-brother. OK, cool. They are on an adventure to meet God.... OK. At least the story has an element of sense. Uhura dancing in the desert? Horseback riding? The humor in this movie wasn't very good. But again, there were some good elements, such as Uhura wanting to get in Scotty's pants (that was fairly humorous), and Sybok exploring the 'Threes' pain, especially for McCoy, who gave euthanasia to his father. But these are merely flyspecks on an otherwise VERY mediocre movie. And that's being polite. Grade: C

    TUC: This movie felt... different. I thought it was pretty well done and a good way to send out the TOS crew. Great storyline, showing Kirk's continued hatred for Klingons. We see Spock inflict torture on someone (on a fellow Vulcan, no less) Good pacing, good movie. Grade: B+

    I've only watched 'Generations' and First Contact with the TNG series, they were pretty good. Didn't like the Borg Queen thing, but I suppose they had to do something different with the Borg. They were OK.
     
  3. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I feel that the makers of the Next Generation films possibly thought anything they did would make lots of money as TNG the series was such a ratings hit, surely any set of films based on that would be just as widely recieved.
    Only, generally speaking, they were not that well recieved.
    Maybe they thought any old idea would work and they lost some of their creativity. Regardless it cost them in the end.
     
  4. Disruptor

    Disruptor Commodore

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    It seems he put Khan and company on a planet and never consulted Starfleet.
     
  5. AFEK ESLCAFE W

    AFEK ESLCAFE W Lieutenant Commander Newbie

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    The TOS films came out better than the TNG films probably due to the fact that they were produced at a time when there was less studio meddling with the former than the latter.
     
  6. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They do appear to be open-ended questions, Kirk not consulting Starfleet about stranding Khan in "Space Seed" or sending Spock's body into deep space.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Starfleet had to have known about Khan and that he was deposited on Ceti Alpha V. There were mission logs and Kirk was missing the ships historian.

     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  8. 22 Stars

    22 Stars Commodore Commodore

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    This is one of the things I liked about TOS, that Starfleet was there, but far enough away that Kirk didn't have to check in with them all the time. This was his call to make, and he let them know what he decided.
     
  9. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Point recieved and understood, Bill. :techman:
     
  10. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That was one of the interesting things about the new movie. There were several...questionable decisions the characters made during the film, but it harkened back to TOS.
     
  11. pengbuzz

    pengbuzz Guest

    As opposed to Picard, who had to check in every 5 minutes. :lol:
     
  12. Kelso

    Kelso Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Subspace communication works on the same principle as warp speed- whatever the plot demands.
     
  13. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Majority of the TOS movies were made with the belief that each film would be the last one. I believe Leonard Nimoy said something to that extent in one of the dvd interviews on the movies. The TOS films put alot of thought into making their movies as entertaining as they could with what they were given.

    If you look at the TNG movies, they seem to be made with the premise that they'll always have another one to do. While it wasn't totally unfeasible for TNG to make more than 4 movies. Berman put all his eggs in the VOY basket. VOY being billed as the "next TNG". Recent interviews with Marina Sirits, Levar Burton, Johnathan Frakes, Brent Spiner and Rick Berman they all say that Paramount wanted the TNG films to end at Insurrection an wasn't interested in another TNG film. Berman was able to talk them into making Nemesis but the fan base wasn't paying attention and it didn't make a profit at the BO. Had Nemesis been successful we would've had a 5th TNG film. DS9 was fantastic but didn't make as big a return as Paramount wanted. VOY copied as much of TNG as they could but was still hemorrhaging ratings. The franchise was stalling. If Berman hadn't set up DS9 and VOY to compete alongside the film series, the TNG movies could've been better.
     
  14. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He didn't. The studio did. Berman was adamantly opposed to creating Voyager at the time they did. He felt that the mantle should be passed from TNG to DS9 so that there would be one TV series on the air and one film series running, as had been done successfully for many years. He felt that creating another spinoff at the time was making one too many trips to the well and would end badly.

    And he was right.

    Unfortunately, Paramount overruled him and told him basically that there was going to be another Trek series with or without him. Faced with that, he gave in and joined with Piller and Taylor to create Voyager.
     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    Yep. As usual, Berman gets more blame than he deserves. He made some mistakes, but not nearly as many as some people think.
     
  16. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Except, the pattern of rising salaries for Stewart and Spiner was making the budget trickier with each film. Or Paramount had to have been brave enough to proceed without one or both of them.

    TMP commenced as "Phase II" without Nimoy. Saavik and David were groomed to take over from Nimoy and Shatner in future Spockless/Kirkless ST followups to ST II. They weren't needed, but they were on hand. Each movie was a reunion, after the initial absence of the characters for ten years.

    The success of TNG films, after seven years of the characters together in ensemble, hinged on the ensemble effect, even though two cast members insisted on maximum participation/salary, but TNG movies' success still hinged on the presence of the ensemble.
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I really disagree here. I think they could've ditched everyone but Stewart, Spiner and Dorn and not missed a beat.
     
  18. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    That was kind of my point. Stewart and Spiner were making huge salary and participation demands and Dorn had a clause in his DS9 contract that he be included in future TNG movies.

    But to ditch the rest of the ensemble would have trodden on a lot of toes.
     
  19. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To ditch the rest of the ensemble beyond Stewart, Spiner, and Dorn would have angered a great deal of the fans. If that made big financial sense for the studio, I can see them trying to weather that storm. However, the truth is that it was the salaries of Stewart and Spiner that were causing the budgets of the films to explode.

    While I'm sure someone like Marina Sirtis or Gates McFadden was not being paid chump change by any means, I seriously doubt that eliminating them from the cast would have made a major impact on the film's budget.

    The only way actor salaries could have helped the budget is if they had eliminated Stewart or Spiner, and they weren't about to do that.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Not talking about cost. Talking about them taking up screen time spouting generic lines.
     

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