Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by shatastrophic, Aug 1, 2007.

  1. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    Troi was for needing long, extended, psychological care for emotional issues. Guinan has shit to do so isn't going to spend an hour once a week listening to some woman trying to get over her lost husband.

    As said, Guinan could provide some friendly, one-off, advice to get one on the right path or make a decision but that's a lot different than emotional support and correction that is part of Troi's profession.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Conveniently, Troi's "advice" turns out to beneficial after the patient thinks about it, and even winds up thanking her.
     
  3. Kestrel

    Kestrel Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yup. I loved Guinan, but she really stole Troi's chances of thunder.
     
  4. jibrilmudo

    jibrilmudo Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    With her empathy, Troi was useless. The way she was written, 90% of the time, she had a keen sense of the obvious. If they didn't have her on the bridge so much, especially earlier on, they could have used her talents to greater effect at more pivotal moments.

    That they had to bring Guinan on board pretty much speaks to how much the writers botched the concept of her role.

    I think if she was less on the bridge and had an office next door to Dr. Crusher, for mental health, she could have been used to greater effect. Add in some stigma to mindreaders in the galaxy among rival alien cultures, making Picard consult her privately as his ace in the hole, maybe she could have been something more special.

    Guinan was better at helping people. She even helped Data's daughter become more human more than anything Troi could have done.
     
  5. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    The thread confuses two different [albeit seemingly similar] roles. Troi is a counselor and Guinan is not.

    Troi is no doubt qualified, has numerous 'sessions' which we never see and is generally good at her job. She helps numerous people throughout the show to overcome certain tragedies in their lives.

    Guinan is worldy. She is wise. She isn't just a bartender, she is a centuries old woman who has no doubt seen a lot of stuff. Your little love-life problem or ethical quandry is likey nothing she hasn't seen before. She has no qualifications but she is a damn good source of opinion and a useful measuring stick to keep you grounded and on track.

    They provide a similar service but it IS different. You wouldn't walk into Troi's office and ask "How do I get girls to like me?" in a similar way you would not walk up the bar and say "My brother just died on Earth and my whole world has just fallen apart" while bursting into hysterical tears.
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's a good point you'd make. Honestly though, I'd feel more comfortable talking to Guinan about a deep personal issue too though. It's too formal with Troi, she's recording what you tell her each session and half the time you're only there because you're ordered to be. Guinan's a person you can open up with because you want to, not because you need to.
     
  7. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Isn't the ship's computer recording what everyone says at all times anyway? I just kind of assume it's doing that. Especially since that super-barclay episode they have to take a chip out of the wall to stop him from hearing everyone.

    Guinan's advice sometimes doesn't seem so great. She tells Riker to let Picard go... by not listening to her, he was able to save him.
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There was one episode of Voyager that established the ship scans your brain waves at all times. That gets creepy. But therapists even today will either record and/or take notes about everything you tell them.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which episode?
     
  10. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    I think the problem was that Troi was too close to people like Will, Beverly, and Jean-Luc to be an objective therapeutic influence, except in the most extreme circumstances, i.e. recovering from abduction, torture, brainwashing, etc... The rest of the time she was too much of a family member to affect the proper environment where she could counsel them. So, I'd say because of that, Guinan had more success as a counselor or adviser.

    However, Troi was clearly the better therapist. Guinan didn't really supply therapy, and the counseling was minimal. More often than not, she was just a listener, a sounding board for the senior staff to externalize their inner conflict for the audience. In that sense, Guinan isn't a counselor at all, not in a professional sense. She certainly isn't right all the time
     
  11. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think I agree with this. It's what I would have put into words if you hadn't done so.

    Several of you mentioned the way Troi dressed. I don't think I could deal with her trying to help with with mental health issues while her chest was popping open right in front of my face. Seeing as to she could probably sense this in me, I'd probably just be honest with her about it, maybe something like "Look, you know that I'm physically attracted to you, so I don't feel you could help me because I'm just going to be too distracted with your physical appearance to concentrate on any mental issues I have".

    The whole Barkley thing was idiotic. I only enjoyed his character once, in that episode where he takes them to the centre of the galaxy. The transporter episode (Realm of Fear?) was ok too. I lol'd when he kept asking the computer for more birds :guffaw:
     
  12. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Picard sought her out for her skills. We saw one or two other crewmembers do that. Everybody else seemed to prefer to talk to Guinan.
     
  13. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Deanna's too beautiful to tell your most embarassing moments and deepest fears to, as you can't help but want to impress her and get with her. Showing all of that cleavage and wearing such tight leggings makes it very hard to confide anything to her, except your phone and room number. The last thing you want her knowing is that you've developed an irrational fear of the elastic in your underwear. Guinan's homeliness makes it so much easier to approach her with such insecurities. If her opinion of you suffers, well ... you know ... so what, then? Really. You feel you can trust her because, at the end of the day, you don't really care what she thinks ... you just know you can trust her. And that's what it all comes down to, I think.
     
  14. jibrilmudo

    jibrilmudo Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Ezri Dax.

    She was just a beginner, and had definite missteps, but she earnestly worked toward helping someone solve their problems. The missteps helped because it made the problems seem nontrivial and also provided her own character for growth.

    Maybe DS9 writers looked back at what a huge flub they made of ship's councillor in TNG and took corrective steps.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You mean like getting shown up by a hologram in her own field of expertise? :p
     
  16. jibrilmudo

    jibrilmudo Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Well, according to her, Nog has been getting therapy (talking to councillors nonstop) for the last 2 months previous to returning to DS9 without improvement... so she was smart enough to stand back while Nog sought his own form of therapy and made sure everyone else did too. (After Nog punched Jake, Sisko or someone could have easily come in and discipline him, disrupting everything). It's shows some humility on her part, content to direct the overall arc of it and not engage the patient at every turn.

    It's just with Troi, I see her patients getting better DESPITE her help, not because of it. Maybe the sessions are so tedious, most just will themselves back to mental happiness. Look at Barclay, that guy is so messed up, he still needs her a decade later in Voyager. You'd think she was billing hours by that method!

    I'd think Lwuxana would be a decent therapist though, if a bit blunt.:techman:
     
  17. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Worf should have been counselor.

    Patient: I don't know what I should do.

    Worf: That's because you are weak! Go! If I ever see you here again, I will kill you where you stand!
     
  18. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Worf would be a better dating coach. Klingons do not date, they conquer that which they desire.

    Actually I'd probably rather talk to Worf than Deanna / Guinan. Plus instead of just talking you can do some combat training too. More fun than having a million year old Guinan beat you on at that target shooting game.
     
  19. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Wouldn't surprise me if Guinan's putting something stronger than synthehol in those drinks, just to loosen people up so they think she's making sense.
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Isn't that every wise bartender's secret? ;)