Who should have been killed in Nemesis? (Not Stuart Baird please)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    I was curious about something regarding the much discussed movie, Star Trek Nemesis. Forgive me for my assumption if I am wrong, but the vibe that I get is that most of us here think the Data death was a bad thing, or at the least, was poorly executed for many reasons, one of which being the presence of B-4. I loved the message that it sent in regards to Data in his quest to be more human by making the ultimate sacrifice. My question is this...if you could change a few things, who would you rather have seen killed off on "A Generation's Final Journey?" (other than Wesley Crusher of course. :) ) I'm asking this question in spite of not having an opinion myself, but I really do enjoy the discussions even if I have no opinion as of yet.
     
  2. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Riker
     
  3. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    Levar would had been a much better director.
     
  4. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I don't see why anyone had to die. It would have been a better story, I think, if it didn't rely on that cheap re-tread stunt from Treks II and III (the B4 cop-out).
     
  5. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    I would had favored all of them dying if it would had been done well.
     
  6. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Thematically it would've worked better had Picard been the one to die.

    1. It would've worked better with the story they were going for. King Arthur meets his long lost son Mordred. In the story Mordred strikes down Arthur as Arthur pierces him with a lance. Displayed in how Picard ends Shinzon.

    2. Also had Picard died then Riker would likely been promoted to captain of the Enterprise. The rest of the crew would've stayed together after that. Worf and Geordi never left the Ent-E, Troi now Riker's wife wouldn't leave for the Titan, Crusher may have stayed on to keep the family together and Data would be first officer.

    3. Riker's destiny would be fufilled by becoming captain of the Enterprise. There mission would be working on relations with the Romulans just like at the end of NEM. Mirroring Undiscovered Country by making a long time enemy an ally.
     
  7. malchya

    malchya Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I must agree: Picard.
     
  8. NrobbieC

    NrobbieC Commander Red Shirt

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    Shinzon, before Nemesis even happened.
     
  9. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Picard
    Riker
    Wesley
    Shinzon
    "Admiral" Janeway
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Picard or Shinzon, with the audience left wondering.

    That is, have Stewart portray both characters (at least after Shinzon's weird biological processes reach their peak - Tom Hardy until then is fine with me), have the big fight between the two in the end, and have a person looking like Stewart sacrifice his life in order to stop the evil thing (loss of E-E, or perhaps loss of Earth) from happening, while another person looking like Stewart survives, walks away from the carnage, and sits in Picard's chair. Did Picard triumph, or did Shinzon realize how wrong he had been, have a change of heart, and finally assume the role he was destined for - that of replacing Picard?

    Everybody expected Baird to pull a Gladiator with this story; that's why he was asked to do the gig the first place. A happy ending involving the death of the hero would be right up his alley, and what was expected, but with enough of a surprise twist to satisfy the audience.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not a big fan of the assumption that anyone had to die.

    STIII was written explicitly to address this. Nimoy wanted a film that was about something, and not another excuse to kill a character or beloved ship. The result was a hugely successful film.
     
  12. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ST3 killed the refit original Enterprise.

    And the movie wasn't very good either.
     
  13. bbailey861

    bbailey861 Admiral Premium Member

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    I am not sure anyone had to die - least of all Data, but in the event there had to be, the best choice would have been Picard and the reasons would have to be solid. The Federation would have had to be in a better position/place if Picard bit the big one. Then, of course, as mentioned below, Riker could have been offered command.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The flaw with Nemesis wasn't who they killed it's how hallow and meaninglessly it was done. A character death can be a VERY dramatic plot element if done properly. If done improperly, it's just an afterthought.
     
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    *COUGH* Trip Tucker *COUGH* ;)
     
  16. Jon1701

    Jon1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, as shown in the film - Data tranfers all his memories into McCoy (*cough*), I mean B4 so you could argue he doesn't really die.
     
  17. Utopianvista

    Utopianvista Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Spock.

    Then we wouldn't have got the disaster of NuTrek.
     
  18. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    So just to piggyback on what you said, which I agree with, Data makes the ultimate sacrifice that I'd like to think is a very human thing to do for a friend or member of a family, so do you think that him making the ultimate sacrifice was not a good idea, or just improperly done. If it's improperly done, I'd love to know how you would have improved upon that... :) The Tucker thing in Enterprise was so bad, that I don't remember why or how that happened...but the 3rd and 4th season T'Pol sure is nice to look at...
     
  19. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have no doubt Data would willingly sacrifice himself for a member of the crew. Heck his willingness to do so for active antagonists has been established as early as Deja Q when he damaged himself and nearly died saving Q's human form.

    So obviously we're going with improperly done. Let's establish what happened. Picard decides he's a senior badass and beams over to the Scimitar to stop Shinzon's super weapon. Conveniently the transporters are shot and can only beam him over and not back. Too bad they didn't have any shuttles hmm?

    So Picard gets over there and starts killing Remans by the dozens video game style. The he gets into the classic hand to hand battle with the villain. There's no stopping superhero Picard, except his arthritis makes him drop his weapons occasionally. He beats the bad guy, impales him on a giant spear and yep. Shinzon spouts off a dumb line and that just causes Picard to suddenly become wrought with emotion for killing poor little Mini Me.

    Yep, Picard's so overcome with grief over that he just doesn't think about all his friends over on the Enterprise dying. Too bad. Well Data does his silly physics defying space jump. Even he forgets they have shuttles too. Anyways, Data comes in to save the day. He puts his transporter tag thing on Picard and it beams him back.

    Now this makes zero sense for a couple of reasons too. A transporter tag, at least in the last movie, made a transporter lock possible in otherwise impossible circumstances. It stops interference. But it still requires the transporter on the other end to be working. Now it's just magic. It works. Or maybe the transporter tag thing is just smarter than our heroes and taps into the shuttles transporters if the main ones aren't working?

    Number two... why doesn't Data just grab Picard as he transports him away? There are any number of examples of this throughout Trek as early as STIV when Gillian grabs Kirk when he's beaming up. Power doesn't seem to be an issue, the transporter just grabs everything in a given three dimensional area and beams it up. Like the floating blood in STVI. Oh wait, how would Data blow up the doomsday core? Well bombs work... but even since he didn't think of this, there are multiple examples of both Federation and Romulan hand weapons being set to "overload" on a 30 second or so timer. Data had his phaser. Even if the transporter tag doesn't work to get Data back for whatever reason he can set it on overload and run back out to that hatch and jump back into space.

    So yeah, Data sacrificing himself was pretty much meaningless due to sloppy writing. I think it makes more sense that Data just couldn't take anymore of these movie scripts and offed himself. :p
     
  20. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    touché...you're spot on. Some of the points you brought up are some of the same things that I wondered...like the transporter. Why couldn't they just touch each other or whatever and transport out together. The shuttle pod point that you made brings up a lot of questions for me. Last time I checked, shuttles have transporters as well. One thing I've always wondered about, and this goes for all of Star Trek, couldn't the shuttle pods be used in battle? Using them to deploy weapons, or just use the weapons on them to help fight villains like the Borg. Why not amp-up, so to speak, the shuttles so that they can be used in battles and be formidable? Like the delta flyer on Voyager?
     

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