Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by ConRefit79, May 6, 2013.
When did Saavik and David been having seks?
Novelization of 3rd novel says it starts before they leave Enterprise for Grissom. And I think it happened on Grissom as well.
But that's just from the novel for TSFS.
Fair enough. Although it should be noted that the whole business about Saavik being his "adopted daughter" is also from the books and comics and other non-canonical sources. If we're going strictly by the movies, then Saavik was simply a promising student whom he is mentoring.
And the books certainly didn't make up the part about them hooking up on the Genesis Planet. (Although, granted, there were extenuating circumstances.)
I remember that, back in the day, a lot of fans assumed that Saavik was pregnant with Spock's child when she was left behind on Vulcan in the fourth movie . . . .
Actually, VOY "Gravity" sort of suggests it only becomes worse with age. At least if it goes untreated, one way or another...
"Amok Time" makes no mention of a seven-year cycle. "Cloud Minders" has this exchange, though:
We don't get an exact description of what this seven-year cycle is, but it seems to be related to this "taking a mate" thing Droxine asks about. It doesn't follow that Spock would experience this full pon farr thing every seven years, though - merely that he'd have a strong urge to find a mate every seven years.
It's not until ENT "Bounty" that we hear for certain that females get pon farr, too (Spock was gender-unspecific in "Cloud Minders" but that wasn't explicit enough yet, and he might not have been talking about pon farr in the first place). But "Bounty" fails to tell that pon farr would happen every seven years; it's just something that hits T'Pol at that time, with no mention of it possibly recurring. (Circumstances cause it to hit T'Pol too early, though: she says "it's not time", as if she knew when to expect the phenomenon. But she never says she would have experienced it before.)
So, as far as we can tell, pon farr may well be a once-in-a-lifetime experience for Vulcans of both genders, coinciding with the seven-year mating cycle but not being an integral and recurring part of it. It's merely the crowning moment of your mate-finding urge, perhaps hitting you on the very first round of your seven-year cycle, perhaps lurking until some later round.
Spock experienced it only once AFAWK - until being reborn, at which time he again only apparently experienced it once despite supposedly maturing through several decades. Vorik experienced it once (VOY "Blood Fever"), perhaps because he had no mate yet. Tuvok experienced it, too, despite previous experience, but perhaps because he had no telepathic connection to the mate he already had. His still remains the only confirmed case of a repeat performance of pon farr...
My memory's a little shaky on this one, but didn't at least one of the novels have Saavik adopted by Sarek & Amanda? So instead of his daughter, Spock would have married his adoptive sister.
Spock called Saavik Saavikam in TWOK and in my mind that's him treating Saavik as some kind of daughter.
So I don't like the idea of them testing together - creepy
And teacher/student that's sort if creepy too
Unless I really missed something in the novels I haven't read, I never saw anything on screen to suggest any paternal roles. Spock was in a mentor role certainly, and they probably were something of kindred spirits, but nothing to rule out any romance.
I assumed Savikam was the Vulcan pronunciation of Saavik.
Yes, never in the course of history has a professor ended up marrying one of their previous students. No, wait, EVERY Professor who has ever been married did so to one of their previous students.
In my own head canon perhaps influenced by reading hundreds of fan stories - the KAM means son or daughter or baby or something like that.
I sort of thought the same thing while watching TWOK - way before my mind was corrupted by evil fanfiction. And I thought it was pretty obvious that Saavik and David had something going on and she wouldn't do that if she were Spock's girl - would she?
First I've heard of "Kam" being a suffix meaning daughter.
If Saavik were to have been Spock's (adopted) daughter, then her "life saving" actions in the pon farr scene take on a whole new meaning.
And now we're back to icky.
"Am" could be something like a Chinese father would use in a semi private conversation with his daughter, Saavik-xiaonu (Saavik my daughter).
I've always taken it to be a honorific of some kind.
I'm not even familiar with that suffix at all. Was it ever used on TOS? Or prior to The Wrath of Khan?
Sorry guys to perhaps misleading you, (newbie here) perhaps I don't know how to show you here that its just my own interpretation of TWOK and fan-fiction novels I've read that makes me think that KAM is a parent to child sort of thing.
The Vulcan Language Dictionary (also non-canon) say the KAM suffix is a sign of affection usually mother to child.
I haven't seen it in any semi-canon things like novels.
Its just a thing that stuck in my mind and won't let me see the relationship between Spock and Saavik as sort of father - daughter like even though I'm fairly certain he didn't actually raise her in my imaginary canon anyway
Although not confirmed, can we make the assumption Sarek went through pon farr twice?
Would it have been better for Spock to die again?
I took it to be a diminutive or informal way of calling her "my (young) friend."
No, and no.
Only if we accept the nonsensical idea that Sarek married a princess on a planet that isn't run by a monarchy...
First, what could lead you to believe that Vulcan does not have a royal family, or multiple royal families? America isn't a monoarchy and we still have the Hawaiian royal family, which include princesses. Also some of our Native American tribes have royal family lines.
Second, nothing says that Vulcan isn't actually a monoarchy. After the Central Command governmental system was brought down in the 22nd century, what would eventually become the Vulcan government is unclear. We really have no idea what they have in the 23rd and 24th centuries.
Third, Spock himself said that his half-brother was the son of a "Vulcan Princess."
Maybe because Star Trek V - the only movie that TPTB prefer not to acknowledge as truly canon - has the only mention of a monarchy on Vulcan?
There may have been monarchies in pre-Surak times. I'd have to re-read, but I think there may have been such mentions in Diane Duane's excellent novel Spock's World.
But as much as I could wish it, Diane Duane's novels are not canon.
They pretty much acknowledge it in Enterprise. At least Vulcans who explore emotions.
Enterprise did not exist at the time of Star Trek V. And that show isn't part of my personal canon at all. Its very existence violates, in a pretty noticeable way, many of the things that were established by Roddenberry.
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