"Who cares what the plot is?"

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by Chess Piece Face, Mar 17, 2009.

?

Do you care about the plot?

  1. Yes - I couldn't care less about the characters.

    6.8%
  2. Yes - because it is at least one half of a successful formula for a well written show.

    72.6%
  3. No, plot means ZILCH without good characters

    15.1%
  4. No, I could watch 45 minutes of Starbuck noodling on the piano every week

    5.5%
  1. bryce

    bryce Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not quite ready to join the (increasing?) ranks of Ron Moore bashers (or are they all just suddenly coming out of the woodwork?) but I *AM* worried about the finale myself - worried it's NOT going to pay off after all, like many of us expected it would.

    And I don't feel that was "just" based on that single comment by RDM - but it's based on that comment in light of how disappointed I have been with the final 5 - 6 episodes so far.

    I wasn't necessarily expecting all the answers yet myself - but I was at least expecting the writer's would *need too* use every bit of the precious little time they had left in these final few episodes, to finally start resolving all the questions & mysteries left unanswered and to finally start bringing together all the various plot threads and building up to the finale (and ramping up the tension) but instead...we have gotten *nowhere*!!!

    It's starting to make me very worried that RDM has actually just run out of ideas at this point and has NO IDEA how to effectivly resolve this story so he's just *coasting* and hoping we'll all think he's just intentionally making some daring artistic statement about the purposelessness of existence!

    (As if nihilism in art is anything original...)

    I keep *hoping* that in the end all of this will FINALLY pay off and it will make some sense - maybe in hindsight it *will* seem like a brilliant creative choice by RDM to make us feel just as hopeless as the Colonials & allied Cylons feel at this point....and not just the result of

    but I'm losing faith in that with each remaining episode.
     
  2. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've read the definitions in the dictionary. That's good enough for me! That's the common usage of them too. People use the interchangeably.

    Mr Awe
     
  3. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

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    People who aren't writers do. People who are writers use the terms differently and Ron is a writer. Put it together.
     
  4. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Plot = the sequence of events that happen in the story
    Theme = What the story is about

    Most of what people describe as "plotless" is actually "themeless". As long as there are a series of events in the story, it has a plot. If those scenes in that plot don't explore or illustrate some theme, it's pointless. So, no matter what the sequence of events in the Galactica finale, it'll have a plot, but what matters is the resolution of the themes and characters. Not that A happens before B.
     
  5. CaptainKit

    CaptainKit Vice Admiral Admiral

    I definitely care what the plot is. The characters come first but without a plot, they do a lot of aimless things, and that's what they've been doing forever on BSG. I stopped caring about these characters a long time ago. The emotional hold that the series had in its early years, has long since faded away.

    I have watched every episode to see what would happen. Unfortunately, a lot has happened that has been totally incomprehensible.

    There has to be some sort of linear progression to the story. I truly hope Moore doesn't end the series with a deus ex maxima. That would really, really suck.

    I do find making Tigh one of the final five absolutely ridiculous. It's ironic, sure, but also completely unbelievable. It begs the question: why don't the cylons know who they are? Even the skinjobs are still machines so their physiology cannot be completely human. There should have been some kind of sign during their lifetimes, such as a medical exam? The concept as presented just doesn't work for me.
     
  6. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then you don't actually have an informed opinion to contribute to a conversation about plot, character and story.

    You know, there's at least one major "cult religion" - which I won't name so as not to incite controversy, but you find out about this very quickly so as to determine that I'm not making this up - in which the standard response of the leaders to followers who ask impertinent questions is to send them to the dictionary to look up words. It's an effective means of interrupting debate, but in fact yields no useful answers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2009
  7. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It does settle it. We're talking about definitions of two words. Guess what dictionaries do? The provide authoritative definitions. Pretty straightforward.

    I provided the name and link to the specific dictionary I used. Anyone can go to the specific dictionary, look up "plot" and "story" and see the exact words I quoted. You might try using using a dictionary someday. If you do, look up "vague" and "unspecified" because apparently you don't know the definitions of those words. Shoot, add "authoritative" to your list as well.

    Dennis, you're getting tripped up by the minutiae. Evaluting BSG does not depend on whether plot and the story are the same thing. That distinction is inconsequential. Whether those words are exactly the same or not does not impact the quality of BSG one bit.

    I'll basically be evaluating BSG as a series after the finale. My final evaluation will probably be that it was either a very good series or an excellent series. If it's an excellent series, that means it's a classic, one for the ages.

    Over the course of its run, BSG has had moments of brilliance. Thanks to that brilliance, I've probably had more fun discussing BSG than any other TV series. However, over the course of its run it has also had rough, poor quality patches. Extended portions where the plot spun it's wheels (much of the last half of the 2nd season for example, the horrible quadrangle fiasco, the current 4 episode slump). The writers have also structured the seasons poorly at points. Not enough plot (or story) to fill a season yet some episodes had crucial scenes cut for time considerations. That's the worst of both worlds! So, BSG's track record is spotty.

    I don't know if BSG will warrant moving from a good solid above average series to an excellent classic series or not. I'm not sure how the balance between brilliance and the poor patches will balance out. I suspect that it will depend on the finale. We shall see.

    To me, those are the more important issues. That's how I'll be assessing BSG in retrospect. Whether plot is the same as the story is irrelevent as far as I'm concerned.

    Mr Awe
     
  8. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you've been paying attention, you will note that I do in fact have an informed opinion. :rolleyes: You may not agree with it, which is fine. But, that's a huge difference. Try to remember the following advice, argue the point, not the person. Putting me down doesn't make your point stronger.

    As I said in my other post, I'm not going to evaluate BSG based on a potential distinction between plot and story. So the definitions of those words are not even relevant.

    My assessment is going to be based on how much I liked what I saw on an overall basis. You go on and fritter away about trivial things like this while I watch and, hopefully, enjoy the finale.

    Mr Awe
     
  9. Gregsmack

    Gregsmack Captain Captain

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    Agree completely. Lately I feel like this board is just parodying itself to fuck with my mind.
     
  10. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We try our best to do that! :)

    Seriously, I think that RDM's own comments about ditching the plot fueled this. It may well have much to do with nothing. I'm expecting to enjoy the finale. I'm just going to judge it by what I see, not by any contrived definitions that people come up with.

    Based on early critical reviews, the finale does seem to provide answers to questions. Not just questions that we had, but questions that we may not even have had in mind. So, my own fears based on RDM's quote are now greatly eased.

    Mr Awe
     
  11. Chess Piece Face

    Chess Piece Face Commodore Commodore

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    Let me say this about why I posted that quote:

    I don't remember if the quote was in relation to one single battle sequence in the finale, or if it was related to the entire finale, or the last 4 episodes or what. All I know is I'm sitting here watching this show limp to the finale, then I see Ron Moore patting himself on the back for his great realization that plot doesn't matter. Then he goes and writes on the board and everyone goes "ahhhhh!" in the meeting the next day.

    Well guess what? When one of my favorite shows is in the shit - I don't need to see someone I admire behaving like this. This guy is no Rick Berman. There should be no "we are all very pleased" coming from this guy unless we are all very pleased. This guy wrote that great article about Voyager that said everything a lot of us were thinking! This guy came up with the ending to DS9.

    That's why I posted that quote.

    Now, do I want to be wrong? YES! Do I want the finale to take my breath away? FRACK YES!

    Also, there are at least 3 different definitions of plot in this thread, all of them saying a different thing...I think that's hilarious. Especially since we all know very well what he meant and we are just being picky to support our own various points on the internet.

    He clearly meant he would rather focus on the characters AT THE EXPENSE OF storyline/action/plot/direction/whateveryouwanttocallit making sense at a certain point.

    If/When I am proven wrong I will be very happy - but that still won't change the last 5 hours of me being so bored that I am mentally giving up on the show and only wishing for it to end to be over.
     
  12. Gregsmack

    Gregsmack Captain Captain

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    No, fan immaturity and impatience fueled this. I'm not trying to condemn here or start any arguments (really, I am not) and I can understand the fan's desire to know the end of their story, but people just need to take a step back from all of this "controversy" and start thinking clearly.
     
  13. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    I was thinking about this last night when I was trying to get to sleep. That whole special was about selling the finale to people and how the whole BSG process got to be. I was wondering if Moore said that only to build up the anticipation amongst the crowd. I doubt Moore is stupid, and he does read the boards so he might have succeeded. We're all talking about it, some people (Myself included but I'm taking myself out of this debate today) are ready to jump off the cliff and the lines between Plot and story have become murkey. Now I'm not an English major, but my idea of Plot and story is that you need focus in a story to make it good. That focus comes from the plot, but it also comes from the characters and characters are responsible for driving the plot to a coharent conclusion. That's why you have character driven shows. If it's reverse, than it's plot driven shows.

    I don't feel that from BSG and that's why I panicked. I mean it's been 2 years since they pulled the Starbuck stunt by killing her off and then resurrecting her, and I just want it to mean something. Can you really tell me with a straight face that you don't care that that isn't explained? Would you feel douped and cheated if it's not explained? Also, things like the Head people and the Opera house have been part of the BSG mythos since day one. You don't care where it goes? You don't want any ending to that? I just find it hard to believe.

    BSG is not real life, as much as Moore or anyone else wants you to believe. It's a work of fiction; sometimes they do it well and sometimes they don't. I like the series to the point where I hope there is good closure. I hope they tackle these linguring issues but this whole thing is story and plot, even for me, has gotten a bit out of hand. Hopefully the finale will be good. If not, I know where I can come to bitch and moan and act like a 3 year old. ;)
     
  14. Chess Piece Face

    Chess Piece Face Commodore Commodore

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    In other words - if you found fault with the pacing of the last 5 episodes and the quote from Ron saying "frack plot" stuck out to you - then you are immature.

    Thanks for clearing it up and thanks for insulting a lot of us. :)
     
  15. Gregsmack

    Gregsmack Captain Captain

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    ^ Allow me to clear it further (I wouldn't want you to start a thread about me).

    Fan immaturity and impatience fueled the outburst (particularly this thread) about RDM's comment on "plot/character". Whether or not you liked the last 5 episodes is taste, but jumping on a writer for a comment about a movie he wrote that YOU HAVEN'T SEEN YET is borderline insane.
     
  16. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

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    Looks like he said all this last year. Here's part of an article dated July 21, 2008...

    Source
     
  17. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I really think it's RDM's own comments combined with the type of episode we've seen on the screen lately.

    For me, it's not really the desire to know the end. I don't need everything revealed right now. I really just want to enjoy the journey. For me personally, that means developing the plot along the way. Episodes that are almost strictly character moments, that don't really advance the plot, just aren't as enjoyable. Obviously, your mileage may vary. But, that's been the basis of my criticisms lately.

    Mr Awe
     
  18. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    In order to place a context, here was the very next part of the interview. After reading that, I can kind of see where he's coming from a bit even though I kind of wish he was more careful with his phrasing:

    Same article that was linked right before my post.
     
  19. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's been interesting. What you expect is that the viewers who go into a forum and criticize the show are the rude, obnoxious ones (the bashers). But, in this case, the criticizers have actually been the more calm, rational ones. Whereas, those defending the show have used insults. I've been called a psycho, uninformed, and now immature, all just for stating my opinion on a TV show!

    Yours truly,
    An immature, uniformed psycho!
     
  20. Koinek

    Koinek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Pretty much sums up why I've been frustrated with Season 4.
     

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