Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    It completey destroys story credibility. What does it call itself? It's name is VOYAGER, it reads V___GER and just compacts what's left into a name? It clearly understands the English language, knows there is a gap, is smart enough to understand why that part of it's nameplate is obscured in a way that could be easily remedied, yet fudges it's name for the sole purpose of a big reveal at the end of the movie. No other reason, no in-universe justification.
    Khan was aware of how to fly a starship since "Space Seed", we saw him flying the Reliant solo at the end of the movie. It's in no way plausible that anyone without learning difficulties would mistake space for some Space Invaders-like 2D realm.

    Add to that the intelligence-insulting "code" used earlier in the movie - "hours will seem like days"
    If Ceti Alpha VI isn't there anymore, how did the Reliant ever mistake Ceti Alpha V for it? Did they somehow mis-count planets when they entered the system and set a course? It makes no sense.
    If you want to believe the Genesis Device is plausible science fiction, let alone plausible within the framework of Star Trek's technology, go right ahead.
    So why does Sarek want Spock's body brought to Vulcan when he meets with Kirk in his appartment, before Spock's torpedo tube is located intact on the Genesis surface? The real-world reason is that the Grissom scene was originally to open the movie, but was moved further back, giving the impression Sarek somehow knew Spock would be reborn there.
    Yet they just happened to pick up Spock and leave when he was the correct age? Thats a big part of the movie hinging on a big happy coincidence.

    And how exactly did Genesis turn a corpse into a young child?
    No, but an example of Trek veering into cartoon land.
    That's warm, cozy nostalgia talking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  2. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    It does imply one has the common sense to know space has an up and down. Six-year-olds know that. And, as I posted up-thread: "space" is defined by "three-dimensions."

    Also, three-dimensions are not something unique to space combat. Both the maritime and aerial warfare of the 1990s persisted in a three-dimensional environment.

    But humans have always accounted for three-dimensions in combat going back to early human hunters seeking the high-ground over their prey. And Rudimentary Chinese topography started as a strategic military tool.

    Whether you're climbing ladders and jumping down holes in a FPS, a longbowman entrenched above the Dover Cliffs waiting for Norman invaders, dropping depth charges on Sean Connery's head, pulling Immelmen turns in an F-18, or hunting Starfleet battle cruisers in purple nebulae, three-dimensions are a part of warfare. Unless you're playing Atari Combat on the 2600, there is no such thing as "two-dimensional thinking."

    It was a throw-away line inserted to create the contrivance that gave Kirk the upper hand. *coughdeusexmachinacough* It completely defies logic.

    It's a plot hole.

    It wasn't so much a plot hole as it was just plain-old silly and stupid.

    For the sake of argument, let's assume CA5 was ~1AU from it's sun--a little closer since it was tropical. Maybe CA6 was a little further away--say Marsish--so 1.5 AU. CA6 explodes pushing CA5 closer to the sun and thus making the planet too hot to sustain life. Aside from positioning it far away from where CA6 should be, wouldn't that also automatically omit it from the list of Genesis candidates?

    In celestial terms, the time between "Space Seed" and TWOK is a micro second. So even if the only information of the system is from the Enterprise's original visit, the data should be accurate.

    Mental masturbation aside, the sequence of events went something like this:

    --Kirk puts Khan on planet. It's safe to assume the Enterprise crew recorded and cataloged the system since it's, you know, their job. Thus Starfleet has an accurate record of all the planets in the system.

    --One of the planets magically explodes (Because they're so prone to doing so.) drastically altering the solar orbit of at least one of the adjacent planets.

    --Despite prior evidence, it is later confirmed Chekov did interact with Khan when he was aboard the Enterprise, and if Greg Cox is to be believed (Dubious, I know.), Chekov played a vital role in Khan's relocation. Yet, in the interim between events, Chekov seems to conveniently forget all about what would be, for most people, a significant life event.

    --Anyhoo, Reliant comes to town and some how ends up on the wrong planet. The only ways this could happen are:

    Reliant fails to make new charts of the system because the crew didn't know how or they couldn't be bothered.

    Reliant does make new charts but fails to compare them to Enterprise's because the crew couldn't work the computer archive or they couldn't be bothered.

    Reliant does make new charts, does compare them to Enterprise's, goes strait for the one in furthest orbit (assuming there were only ever six), and fails to realize it's neither where it should be, nor in a suitable orbit to sustain life because either the crew can't read scale or they couldn't be bothered.

    Reliant does make new charts, does compare them to Enterprise's, does realize there's malfeasance, but decides to investigate anyway to be thorough but the crew can't count to six because either they all failed grammar school or they couldn't be bothered.

    All in all this, at best, makes Terrell look lazy and inept and, at worse, a complete tool.

    This whole mess of contrivances, is not really a plot hole, no. But it is really poor writing. And should have probably been looked at.

    For one thing, slightly altering the narrative to show that Chekov was fully aware of the situation, but the crew decides to check it out anyway--fully armed landing party in hand--and ultimately over powered by Khan & CO, adds a badly needed element to the story.


    It was specifically stated on screen that Genesis turns something into something else. In the end, it created something out of nothing. This contradiction is the definition of plot hole.
     
  3. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ok now, with all the bitching and moaning about plot hole this and plot hole that, will one of you people stop bitching and PLEASE write a perfect script with a perfect story with no plot holes and sell it and get it made into a movie with the perfect cast and perfect sets and perfect effects and a perfect score and perfect everything else so we don't have to endure this crap any more?

    Let me know when it's coming out and I'll be first in line.

    Thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    I know, it's crazy. With all this carrying on, you'd think the premise of the thread had to do with pointing out plot holes in the movies or something.
     
  5. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, heaven forbid someone should question the premise of a thread on an internet forum.

    The universe might implode or some damn thing.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. solariabsg25

    solariabsg25 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Two plot-holes from Generations that I disagree with.

    The first is "Why didn't Soran just fly a ship into the Nexus?"

    He stated that diverting the ribbon was the only way. It could be that, although they were lucky before their rescue on the Enterprise B, in most cases attempting to enter the Nexus in a ship results in the ship being destroyed before the crew are pulled into it. Soran wanted to enter the Nexus, not risk getting killed.

    Secondly, "Why didn't Picard go back to earlier and stop Soran in Ten Forward?" The simple answer is, he didn't think of it. When he was talking to Guinan's shadow, all he was thinking of was stopping the missile launch. It's not a plot hole if the character screws up.

    Now, the Enterprise D getting her ass handed to her by an obsolete Bird of Prey that should have been space-dust with a single phaser barrage and full spread of photons, that I can't stand. That can be explained, but we'd have needed a few extra lines of dialogue about "rotating shields" and "why are the Bird of Prey's shields still holding?" for it to make sense.

    The sequence as filmed just makes the D, which has stood toe-to-toe with Borg cubes, Cardassian Galors, and Romulan Warbirds, look a bit of a wuss!!
     
  7. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Others already explained--quite clearly--why it read the plate at face value. English is not a simple language, so if you're suggesting it should assume "voyager" was obscured by the dirt, based on understanding the language, then you've arrived at a false conclusion. English is littered with nicknames, abbreviated names or descriptions, etc., in addition to formal language. Consider this example, if it read a car plate bearing "T___bird," is it going to somehow figure out that beyond the dirt, it really spells "thunderbird?"

    Being aware of how to fly a ship is not in any way the same as developing skills/insight from long years of experience, otherwise, a cadet should be promoted to captain, since browsing tech manuals (like Khan) is enough to be as proficient as a Starfleet admiral.

    It was a gamble. It worked.


    If you accept all of the other never-going-to-happen Trek tech mentioned earlier (including time travel as used in ST), then the Genesis device is as plausible in a late 23rd century sci-fi world.

    You need to back to your "magical" line, as you still have not explained how that cannot--or should not exist in ST.


    The best answer is through Spock's cells. Before you utter a "but," we do not know the course/time of cell death in a Vulcan, which cells remain or how (or if) Spock's body was prepared before being torpedoed to Genesis, etc. Without that information, you have to accept that the time of Spock's death to his arrival on Genesis was relatively short, so he did not have much time to decompose.


    The sound effect does not erase the point of the scene: Scotty disabled the Excelsior. If someone was distracted by the sound effect, then they were not really paying attention to the very simple meaning of the scene.

    No, it is clarity and great taste in film that allows me to tell the difference. :techman:
     
  8. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Fair enough, having never watched the Director's edition of TMP I was unaware that they had that. I stand by my opinion of the design. Stocking a ship up with explosives seems a bit stupid when you've got a perfectly good warp core you can overload seems reckless. What if they got hit during a battle?
     
  9. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    The pre-rigged explosives do sound like favorable option. I mean if you think about it, using the core as the main detonation device, as suggested in TMP, is kind of a security hole.
     
  10. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Aw, come on. It's such a minor nitpick.

    Nothing. Only other characters call it anything in the movie.

    Yes it is. Intelligence is not a substitute for experience. He was trying to maneuver the ship, but although he knew about space being 3D, he didn't exploit it. I don't have a problem with it. In fact, I buy it completely.

    No disagreement here.

    That makes little sense, anyway. But someone has already explained how that might happen.

    If you want to believe Warp Drive is plausible science fiction, go right ahead. Ditto for replicators, transporters, shields, artificial gravity, inertial dampening, trilithium torpedoes, wormholes, doomsday machines, bodily transmutation, telepathy, hundreds of humanoid races, "pure energy", time travel, red matter, mind transfer, sound in space, impossible space physics, the Nexus, etc. And don't get me started on Star Wars (The Force), Babylon 5 (souls), Riddick, Warhammer 40k, Dune, Starship Troopers, The Fifth Element, Doctor Who, Alien, and other sci-fi franchises. Really, the Genesis project is a bit much, but don't try to pretend it's the worst offender.

    Bad writing.

    Just like Kirk and company just happening to meet in the new movies. Just like tons of happy coincidences in all fiction. And TSFS' reveal of older Spock at the end, just before they transport off planet, is very fitting. Logic often gives way to what "feels" right in scripts.
     
  11. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Think about it: the warp core breach scenario is MUCH more destructive. It would damage or destroy anything within a wide radius. It could have destroyed V'Ger in TMP, so if they were going to steal the Birg of Prey, and survive on the planet below, it wasn't an option.
     
  12. mos6507

    mos6507 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Moreover, V'Ger seems to be totally unaware of the aliens' role in transforming him from a primitive computer to a living machine, even though there is a digital image of their alien homeworld. If V'Ger is aware of those aliens, he seeks humanity more the way, let's say, an adopted child seeks out his biological parents.

    It certainly would have been possible to have the crew of the enterprise match the probe via visual identification only and to have V'Ger go by a wholly unknown name. It was more dramatic to have V'Ger seem in some way to be suffering from amnesia or brain-damage, and to only have a fragmented sense of self.

    Certainly on subsequent viewings, the mystery of what V'Ger is loses its impact. The film rests more on the philosophical questions it asks, which are really not dependent on the 'reveal' at all.

    The problem with something like "Into Darkness" is the 'reveal' becomes too much of the whole picture, so they have less rewatchability. JJ relies too much on mystery to tease the audience into a frenzy enough to flock to theaters.

    Khan also had a dramatic reveal in Trek II, but the audience knew going into it who the bad guy was, and therefore the mystery of the bad-guy's identity was not the film's purpose. The suspense comes from the characters slowly figuring it out, and being vulnerable as long as they don't know the score (like the surprise attack).
     
  13. ColeMercury

    ColeMercury Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    As far as plot holes go the worst has got to be Star Trek III: The Search For Spock. The plot makes no sense at all -- Kirk's motivations would only make sense if he knew Spock was alive on Genesis and there was a way to restore his katra, but he doesn't.
     
  14. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh come now. It had the greatest scene of Star Trek history....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyyjCn1ML3k
     
  15. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    What makes you say that ? There's nothing in the movie that implies that V'Ger is unaware of them.

    No, it doesn't "certainly". The only thing that makes me cringe every time is that they made up four more Voyager probes that never happened.
     
  16. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    He's operating on faith--and his final log report from TWOK:

    "There are always possibilities, Spock said. And if Genesis is indeed...life from death, I must return to this place again."

    The set up and motive was already in place (the belief that Genesis might restore Spock--the reason Spock's tube was aimed at the planet, rather than anywhere else in space). With that, there's need to question Kirk's resolve after the Sarek conversation in TSFS.
     
  17. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Quoted for truth.
     
  18. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    I rather like that the TWOK novelization mentions something of this nature, and also states that CA6 was a moon of CA5, rather than a distinct planet in its own right. While that makes the naming convention more confusing and silly, I think it meshes better with Khan's description of how the explosion wrecked the environment on CA5. Had another full planet exploded, I don't think they would have survived at all. CA6 was described as being geologically unstable, a fact unknown to Kirk's crew because the area was poorly charted and largely unknown in "Space Seed." Chekov was part of the crew that helped relocate Khan's people to the planet surface.

    Chekov does note in the novel that the Reliant is getting inconsistent readings from the system, which is still barely explored as late as TWOK, and he doesn't fully connect the dots until Khan captures him and Terrell. Course, the fact that dialogue suggests Chekov and Terrell mistook CA5 for CA6 kind of goes against this theory. :p
     
  19. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    That's not how it works, I think. Planets are dozens or hundreds of millions of kilometers from each other. The way Khan describes it, the explosion shifted the orbig of Ceti Alpha V, presumably from gravimetric changes due to the planet's destruction.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This explanation keeps Terrell, Chekov and the Reliant crew from looking like complete idiots. :techman: