Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    Well then, you probably should have quoted his post to point that out, instead of mine where I was answering a very specific question about how the Romulans could possibly know where Picard would end up.
     
  2. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But it was directed at both posts. First, the Romulans didn't even need to know that Picard specifically would end up somewhere: they cloned a lot of officers, including Picard. Second, he already was quite a big name in Starfleet, being Captain of the Stargazer and all.
     
  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    ... or, it's a plot hole. :)
     
  4. Elder Knight

    Elder Knight Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hey, it's just standard practice! You always navigate a system by simply counting the off the planets as you approach the primary. Nobody expects "VI" to go missing, so of course you're going to think that "V" really is "VI." Them's the breaks! Space flight involves risks that can't be minimized.

    Suppose that aliens are approaching our solar system shortly after Uranus has exploded. [No jokes allowed.]

    They'd say "There's #9 [Pluto] ... used to be a planet, anyway. Now there's #8 [Neptune], mark that one off."

    He goes on. "Next is ... where is it ... where is ... must be here somewhere, check the charts ... ahh, there it is, Sol #7! Wow, those rings are spectacular! I can't wait to see the next one, which is supposed to be even better!"

    "Hey, quit sightseeing! Our instructions are to destroy #4, which is lifeless, for our experiment."

    "Okay, I can see it in the telescope. Didn't know it was blue and had one large moon."

    "Shut up and arm the destructor beam!"
     
  5. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Real life is full of plot holes. Each of us is not privy to every detail in everyone else's lives, so things they do may seem illogical and inconsistent with what we know from their past. But to them it might be perfectly logical.
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Well, evidently, it was using the Ilia Probe as a text-to-speech synthesizer, to vocalize the letters it sees on itself. But why would it do that? How would it even know that the marks on its surface were letters to be read in the first place, much less that those letters would designate its own name?

    Knowing that there are letters designating a name, and knowing what the muck was, which it's hardly a stretch to assume (certainly Ilia would have known), one would know that maybe there was something to see by wiping the muck off. V'Ger was programmed to learn all that could be learned, so it would have realized the possibility of there being something to see under the muck, which the Ilia Probe would also be able to vocalize.

    I'm totally with King Daniel Into Darkness on this one. I noticed it on first viewing.
     
  7. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Wasn't V'Ger damaged when the alien machine planet found it? It must have reconstructed the programming from what was left, and not knowing any better, taking every found detail literally.

    If all the aliens saw was V___GER, and the probe couldn't tell them any different, why wouldn't they assume that was the probe's name?
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    The same questions get asked of those alien machines on the machine planet, then.

    How would they even know that the marks on the probe's surface were letters to be read in the first place, much less that those letters would designate its name?

    How is it that they happened to read the letters in the proper order, with the proper orientation?

    If you can get all that right, then why don't you wonder about the ridiculously huge spacing between the V and the G, inappropriate for that font, and the muck on the surface in that space?
     
  9. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You'd have to ask those machines about that. They're the ones who repaired V'Ger and improved it to complete its mission.

    Do you need every plot point spelled out? Do you have no imagination that can fill in the spaces?

    A movie that explained everything would be hours, days, weeks long, and would be incredibly boring. Who would sit still for that?

    Seriously, I'm making a list.
     
  10. inflatabledalek

    inflatabledalek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  11. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Those aren't plot holes: they're holes in your knowledge. Reality is perfectly consistent.

    Or maybe V'Ger, like me, doesn't give a hoot about it. Seriously, it's near-omnipotent. Why should it really mind ? This part of the plot really bothers you ? I mean, now that you guys mentioned it, you made me realise that I don't care about it, and that's all.
     
  12. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    I'd love to read what Harlan Ellison said.

    The issue could have been more convincingly dealt with, if V'Ger had referred to itself in translation in more generic terms, such as as "The Seeker". But, no, they had to go for the low-brow, in a film which otherwise clearly had high-brow aspirations.

    And, Jesus, it's not like this makes me hate the film, or that it "bothers" me. This thread isn't about what "bothers" me, or what I hate about the films. TMP's among my favorite Trek films, for Pete's sake. I might've even watched it a hundred times, by now!
     
  13. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    What if chose not to because it didn't want to know? To wipe the muck away and reveal its full name would be to acknowledge that it was once just a lowly space probe and not born a sentient being endowed with a sacred mission from its creator. It turns what was divine into the mundane from its perspective. Sure, it's just deluding itself and being petulant, but like Spock said, that was essentially what V'Ger was, a child. Even with all the remarkable things it could do, it still asked questions like "Is this all that I am?" Just like many humans do, it wants to think of itself as unique and special; the child of a higher being, not a simple machine built by unworthy carbon units.
     
  14. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    In that case, the probe wouldn't have been following it's programming to learn all it could.

    Of course, maybe V'Ger did know, but was simply testing the creator. Unfortunately, that idea's really contrary to everything we saw. There's no evidence that V'Ger knew, or suspected, until Kirk wiped off the grit.
     
  15. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    I'm going through the TOS films at the minute. Just finished Search for Spock actually.

    In TWOK only thing that got me was Chekov mentioning the things in the ear and McCoy totally ignoring it.

    However, SFS has quite a few. Not the Excelsior stuttering to a halt. The fact it's engine's conking out sound like a real world car is pretty stupid, but the physic, well the films seem to treat spaceships like planes - except for the 3D thinking (which is perfectly for to me) - with slow turning angles etc, so I'll excuse that one.

    However, the Enterprise arriving at the Genesis Planet, sees no ships because the Klingon Bird of Prey was cloaked. What about the Grissom's wreckage? That'd have been a nice little nod to have Kirk on edge, which wouldn't have hurt.

    Then there's a few technology ones, Kruge teleports up while the ship is cloaked, photon torpedoes seem to act more like Star Wars Ion cannons than the destructive power of photons we've seen everywhere else. Enterprise's self destruct acts like explosives are ringing the ship, which is a rather terrible design decision. Surely it'd just be warp core exploding. But the engine's are completely intact. It's the saucer section that explodes.
     
  16. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    That was my point about it deluding itself and not acknowledging its true origins, though. Somewhere, it's aware of what it truly is but won't admit it to itself, which is why it doesn't clean the muck away. It's living in a state of denial, and cleaning the nameplate would mean acceptance of its humble beginnings.

    V'ger cut the communications cable when it was supposed to receive the signal to return its knowledge to the creator, because it wanted to bring the creator to join with it, so it's not as if it doesn't occasionally stray from its programming to suit its own needs.
     
  17. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    There's also a very clear point made by McCoy and/or Spock about V'Ger having the emotional competence of a child, despite all the knowledge it had accumulated.
     
  18. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Well 1) it seems to bother you and 2) it wasn't my intention to evoke such a strong reaction from you.
     
  19. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    It's my impression that it's explosive, not a warp core breach like the one mentioned in TMP's director's edition. So yeah, it would kinda look like that.
     
  20. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    most: Generations :klingon:
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