Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Enterprise1701, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Enterprise1701

    Enterprise1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So in the episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday", regarding his ship, Kirk tells Christopher that "there are only twelve like it in the United Earth Space Probe Agency". Now we have to take Kirk's comments with a grain of salt since he's trying to deal with a 20th century human, but if he means Federation Constitution class starships, which would they be? Here are the ones shown in TOS and TOS remastered:

    1. U.S.S. Enterprise (NCC-1701) ("The Cage" et al.)
    2. U.S.S. Constellation (NCC-1017) ("The Doomsday Machine")
    3. U.S.S. Intrepid (NCC-1631) ("The Immunity Syndrome")
    4. U.S.S. Potemkin (NCC-1657) ("The Ultimate Computer")
    5. U.S.S. Excalibur (NCC-1664) ("The Ultimate Computer")
    6. U.S.S. Exeter (NCC-1672) ("The Omega Glory")
    7. U.S.S. Hood (NCC-1703) ("The Ultimate Computer")
    8. U.S.S. Lexington (NCC-1709) ("The Ultimate Computer")
    9. U.S.S. Defiant (NCC-1764) ("The Tholian Web")
    10.
    11.
    12.
    So which other 3 Constitution class starships do we pick from non-canon works to fill in the gap?
     
  2. Avro Arrow

    Avro Arrow Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Well, I would think one of those slots would have to go to Constitution herself... ;)
     
  3. Push The Button

    Push The Button Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    List of Federation Ships Mentioned in the Memos of D.C. Fontana and Robert H. Justman and Quoted in The Making of Star Trek by Stephen Whitfield:

    CONSTELLATION
    CONSTITUTION
    ENTERPRISE
    EXCALIBUR
    EXETER
    FARRAGUT
    HOOD
    INTREPID
    KONGO
    LEXINGTON
    POTEMKIN
    REPUBLIC
    VALIANT
    YORKTOWN

    List of Additional Federation Ships Mentioned in the Memos of D.C. Fontana and Robert H. Justman:

    ARI
    BONHOMME RICHARD
    EAGLE
    EL DORADO
    ENDEAVOR
    ESSEX
    EXCELSIOR
    HORNET
    KRIEGER
    LAFAYETTE
    MERRIMAC [sic]
    MONITOR
    SARATOGA
    TORI
    WASP
     
  4. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You don't have to pick anything from non-canon. The three other ships are Constitution, Farragut and Yorktown.

    Constitution: existence proven by the term "Constitution class"

    Farragut and Yorktown: mentioned in "Obsession"
     
  5. Avro Arrow

    Avro Arrow Commodore Commodore

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    ^ But associating Yorktown and Farragut with the Constitution class is from non-canon. Nothing in the episodes themselves reference either ship as belonging to the same class as Enterprise.

    It's been done for so long that we all pretty much accept that they are Constitution class, but that's not from the canon. Personally, I would have been happy to have Farragut belonging to another class, but I can accept it.

    OTOH, I vociferously reject the notion that Republic is Constitution class. Not every ship mentioned in TOS has to be from the same class!

    (And if you're from the camp that interprets "twelve like her" as thirteen in total, then I'd pick Kongo for the 13th, because FJ! :p)
     
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's also the Republic too. The Constitution is a given, but the problem with the other three ships however, is that they were not seen on screen or referred to in dialogue as Constitution class, so we don't really know what they are.

    *EDIT* Avro Arrow beat me to the punch. I will say, however, that a Farragut was seen in the 2009 movie (and the ships in that fleet were implied to have been built before the timeline change), which would seem to confirm that it wasn't a Constitution class ship if one so chooses to believe that.
     
  7. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

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    How very true, my thinking exactly! The same applies to the Intrepid, BTW ;)
     
  8. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, with TOS-R, that's subject to interpretation. While we don't see the ship in "The Immunity Syndrome," we do see a Constitution class ship in TOS-R's "Court Martial," the dialogue of which seems to imply that this ship is the Intrepid:

    http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080310013612/memoryalpha/en/images/2/2a/USS_Intrepid%2C_Court_martial.jpg

    We don't get a good look at the name or registry of the CGI model however, so again YMMV. Of note, the crew count for the ship in "The Immunity Syndrome" is 430, the exact same count as the Enterprise.

    As an aside, it would have been nice to see all ten ships in orbit, in various stages of repair, but my fear would have been that they would have made them all Connies to go along with Greg Jein's T-Negative list and the conjecture of the ST Encyclopedia.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  9. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

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    KIRK: Spock?
    MCCOY: What is it, Spock? Are you in pain?
    SPOCK: Captain, the Intrepid. It just died. And the four hundred Vulcans aboard, all dead.

    To me this crew count of 400 is an indication, that the Intrepid was NOT of the same class as the Enterprise.

    Mario
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    How so? The crew count of a Constitution appears highly variable, as it was around 210 back in "The Cage". And most of Kirk's crew appeared to be passengers anyway, with titles like Archaeology and Anthropology Officer and job descriptions of waiting and painting and daydreaming. Probably the crew count of the Enterprise under Kirk would also have varied a lot if not for his five-year assignment that often took the ship far away from support assets.

    That's not a quote from the episode, though. What is said in the episode is that there are only twelve ships like Kirk's, and that Kirk operates for the UESPA. These are two separate claims. It doesn't necessarily follow that all of those other ships would also operate for the UESPA, or for Starfleet, or whatever.

    If Kirk means there are twelve ships that are like his in both design and assignment, then most of the names dropped here might be for starships that aren't like Kirk's at all. The Excalibur might never have done a single star-hour for UESPA, say.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I stand corrected. However, there's a difference between someone saying "four hundred" and saying, say, "two hundred fifty seven." A total of four hundred at least implies a ship as large as the Enterprise, if not the same class. Granted, Spock isn't the type of person to round off numbers; if the crew of the Intrepid numbered 430, then he probably would have said 430. But at the same time it's highly unlikely that the ship had exactly 400 crewmembers either. Perhaps without sufficient information Spock was indeed rounding off.
     
  12. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

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    Since the Enterprise obviouisly underwent a refit of some sort between "The Cage" and the series proper, it´s not out of the question that it was also rebuilt / re-structured internally to allow more room for crew quarters. Or it was decided that a crew 204 was simply too small for a five-year-mission so it was increased.

    IIRC, every time the crew count of "Kirk´s" Enterprise was given it was exactly 430 - quite a coincidence, if there is indeed such a fluctuation and variation of crew strength and composition as you suggest.

    Sorry, but a Spock that gives time counts exact to the fraction of a second ("11.337 hours" in That Which Survives) will definitely NOT be rounding off any numbers. And why is it "highly unlikely" that the Intrepid had a crew of exactly 400? 400 is just as likely as 402 or 397 - it´s just the human tendency to round off that makes round numbers seem more unlikely.

    That being said, I´m not insisting that the crew count of 400 is proof that the Intrepid belongs to a class different to the Enterpise´s, I´m just saying it´s an indication - it´s still anyone´s choice to follow that indication or not :)

    Mario
     
  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The difference is that Spock had that time information readily available. He may not have had the crew count of the Intrepid readily available, so he may have just made an educated guess.

    I'd say that it's highly improbable that with constant crew rotations, promotions, reassignments, etc., that a ship would have an exact round number of crew at any time.
     
  14. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    It may be a deleted scene and an alternate reality, but my vote for one of those slots goes to the USS BIDDEFORD NCC-0718
    [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnVWUce3FHQ[/YT]
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    There'd be a 1/10 chance, surely! Not exactly bad odds.
     
  16. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

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    Thank you !!
     
  17. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    The commissioning plaque on the TOS bridge says Starship Class.

    Does anybody know where the term "Constitution Class" first appeared? I remember Picard said it aloud in "Relics" when he entered Scotty's simulation of the bridge, but that can't be the first usage.
     
  18. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I still don't follow why having a crew of 400 Vulcans is an indication that it is not in the same class as the Enterprise. If we take the numbers Kirk spits out as gospel and that 428 (as per Charlie X where he was bring 'exact") is the standard (requiring replacements of the dead), The Enterprise had a crew of only about 30 more than the Intrepid. Are 30 people really all that much more on a ship that size? Also, Vulcans are smarter than Humans. No doubt there could be job consolidation.

    Besides, 428 could just be the count on the Enterprise. Kirk sometimes rounds down to 400 anyway.

    Just one example is The Ultimate Computer: "Four starships, sixteen hundred men and women!"

    No, since the writers and producers make it a point to tell us a starship crew numbers around 400 repeatedly, using the number for the Intrepid is an indication that it is in the same class as the Enterprise.

    Also, as Zap pointed out, the Enterprise was listed on the plaque as being in "starship" class. This was before the 70's reference materials and later spin off series began giving sub classes to starships. Every reference in the series is to "starships," not "Constitution class" or anything else. The Enterprise is one of 12 starships in the fleet and every time we saw a starship, it was of the same design. The Constellation was "by configuration a starship." Yes, there could be many different configurations and Spock would know this, but there's no indication of it. I have to go with what we're given on screen. The four starships in The Ultimate Computer were also the same design. It doesn't matter if the budget wouldn't allow a new design of ships. it's on screen so that's what it is.

    Now back to The Immunity Syndrome -

    MCCOY: Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die.

    I think I've used up my allowance of the use of the term "starship" in this one post alone...

    Going by what we were told and led to believe on the original series, The Intrepid is of the same class as the Enterprise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  19. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    In theory, the term is part of the graphics seen in ST:TMP monitors (as we know those graphics in detail, thanks to them coming from the Star Fleet Technical Manual), but in practice it cannot be spotted there; it's not visible in the up-close view of such a graphic in ST3:TSfS, either. Early TNG has no references to the class name, so it falls upon ST6:TUC to show a graphic with that name (although it refers to the refitted design). That and "Relics" really are the first canon usages AFAIK.

    The designation was apparently invented early on, as it was used in a TOS graphic (that never was visible enough to the audience), but it was not mentioned in any dialogue and wasn't even particularly tightly associated with Kirk's ship.

    That's a 1/100 chance, actually, since what we're talking about here are the odds of 400 (two zeroes) triumphing over 430 (one zero). :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi

    Edit: Actually, TNG "The Naked Now" has Picard say out loud "The Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding" when reading the computer entry pertaining to the "The Naked Time" adventure. Yet the episode features a graphic of the refitted ship there, allowing us to interpret the Constitution class as referring solely to the refit (as it does refer to the refit in ST6) - it's only in TNG-R that a different graphic, closer to the TOS appearance of the ship, is shown there. So nitpickers might say that TNG-R "The Naked Now" came after "Relics" and ST6. :p

    In any case, my mistake.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  20. Mountie1988

    Mountie1988 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    There might have been more, but only 12 remaining after some 20 years of service. Who knows, probably Constitution herself already was lost/decommissioned at that time.