Where was Earth's Leader?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Bry_Sinclair, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    For those interested, here's exactly what Ron Moore had to say on the matter, as posted here.

     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    FWIW, the novels have explained that every Federation member selects its councillor however they want to. Betazed's is chosen by popular election; Andor's, by the majority party in their Parliament; Bajor, by the First Minister (with confirmation by the Chamber of Ministers); didn't say how Earth chose theirs, although I'd guess it's the same as Bajor's (the United Earth Prime Minister chooses, and the Parliament confirms).

    I really could give a damn about what is canon and what is not. No, actually I couldn't give a damn, no matter how hard I tried.
     
  3. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's not what I meant. I mean, Star Trek has more success portraying ethical nuance. There are episodes like The Defector and Duet where the characters' emotional state is delegated to the viewer's cultural imagination. The Star Trek world is more vivid in our imaginations than it ever is on the page, and they rely on that imagination to express themes that are not explicitly present in the script. Star Trek uses simple, dumb stories to express complex ideas.

    Homefront/Paradise Lost is another great example of that. Any other TV show, that episode ends with all the shapeshifters on Earth being captured.
     
  4. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well yeah.

    People are weird. I've seen people not realize the leaves were changing colors, while we were in a full-blown fall foliage peak with bright orange, yellow and red trees all over the place.

    Yes, it would be like an episode or movie with a President working with a state governor. The West Wing has done that. I think Sci-Fi shows has a weird effect on some people, confusing them just because they know it's a sci-fi show.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    From Rapture.

    They just chose people at random?

    Or they chose the most qualified?

    Or they chose the most influential who has greased the most palms?

    Choose is a very vague word.

    I'd say there's an 8 percent chance that in this context that "chose" means "duly and democratically elect".
     
  6. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Funny how the people who actually live in D.C. don't think it's wise.

    ETA:

    I am astonished that anyone would think that Earth doesn't have its own government within the Federation. Apparently some people think it's possible to have a non-federal Federation.
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    For whatever it's worth, in the books the First Minister of Bajor just appointed this councilor. No votes, no approval or anything. And I'd say personal favoritism did play a role in this selection.
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And then from this two parter we kinda know that the UFP is a councillor who is told that he or she is on top, which is a type of voting in the way Russia went through 15 premiere's between 1949 and 1956... "Sigh"

    So planetary leaders pick their buddies who might suddenly at any point graduate into said planetary leaders Boss, so these Planetary Leaders had best make sure that their buddy is really their buddy, but if they pick some pratt who they can push around, then it's unlikely that that councillor will ever become president, which is beneficial to the Presidents homeworld to say some.
     
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wasn't it like a brother-in-law, or ex-lover, or first-cousin, or someone like that?

    Ah, politics as usual.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was her ex-husband actually. Which the only reason they were stated to break up is because it was General Krim(that guy from the Circle and Siege), and her political career would've been dead being associated with him at the time. So yeah, that's just as bad. :p
     
  11. DS9forever

    DS9forever Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^ Actually, Krim wasn't her first choice. The first died just after she arrived on Earth and some of Asarem's other choices had joined Starfleet.
     
  12. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Not exactly. Normally, Bajoran law requires the First Minister to get the approval of the Chamber of Ministers to appoint any off-world representatives; when the Republic of Bajor joined the Federation, this was interpreted to include the Federation Councillor from the Republic of Bajor. But the Chamber was in recess, the Federation Council was about to begin its session, and Federation law prevented a Councillor from joining mid-session. So the First Minister made a recess appointment that would expire sooner than normal, during a Chamber session, and which would thereafter require Chamber approval.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Would that be the yearly session?

    It would be ridiculous to have a rule that required a member world to have no representation on the council for the majority of a year if their representative died (or some other event) early in a given session.

    What if the member replaced their rep for some reason, a change in administration back home perhaps? They're out of the game for the rest of the year?

    Even if the rule only applied to first time new member reps, it wouldn't make sense for the new member to have no voice until the next session begins. They should be a fully represented from day one.

    Given the distance between stars and speed of communication and travel (passager ships might be slower than starships), it might make sense for the Federation Council to have, in addition to the member world's primary representative, a deputy/vice representative sent to the Council at the same time. Ready to step into the primary's shoes as quickly as possible.

    Which ever of the authors who thought up that particular story didn't think it through.

    :)
     
  14. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    It would be. It was, in my view, a contrived plot device used to create a sense of tension and urgency to the story that was unnecessary.

    The novel in question -- Bajor: Fragments and Omens, from Volume II of Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine -- seems to be implying, IIRC, that this cannot happen; the Member government determines how a Federation Councillor will be chosen for a term of office, but the Councillor cannot be removed from office by that Member government during that term.

    J. Noah Kym, IIRC. And I agree.
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thank you.
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The claim that Earth would not have representation if it did not have a leader of its own sounds ill conceived. If anything, Earth would have better representation than any other world, as its direct representative would be at the very highest level!

    Local defense forces do not seem to feature in Star Trek at all. When defenses at Vulcan or Betazed are mentioned, no reason is given for us to think that these would not be Starfleet forces. On the other hand, when such forces are discussed, the infantry element never really enters the picture, as it serves no tactical role in the situation: every local fight ever described in the above fashion hinges on the presence or absence of space forces. Perhaps local ground forces might exist, for those exceptional situations where ground forces are not irrelevant? It's odd, though, that they are never mentioned let alone shown, neither in a "home guard" role (which would have been prominent in "Paradise Lost") nor even in a police role.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So there doesn't need to be a mayor of New York, a Governor of New York, or a president of the USA because the UN is sitting in New York, and perhaps the President should be the UN Ambassador because his proper job can be clumped into the weekends surely?

    Go back to that quote from Rapture.

    "The Malitia has to be absorbed into Starfleet."

    They're not just talking about people, but ships too.

    Petitioning worlds have to hand over their militaries and I'm guessing their shipyards too, which is why the design for starships gets a little weird now and then.

    Once you spread those Bajoran ships around, and then disperse the Bajoran manpower through out the entire fleet, I doubt even half the Star fleet defence force stationed at/near Bajor would be Bajoran.

    If Bajor left the Federation... How much of their shit would they get back?
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This is actually a very interesting question. How would the Federation handle the issue of secession?
     
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I'm sure it's voluntary.

    Andor has already done it.
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I dunno, historically even the most democratic of governments don't just allow a part of the country to leave on a whim and I just can't see the Federation endorsing a secession clause.

    I definitely could see Section 31 arranging accidents for anyone who starts voicing such views.
     

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