Where was Earth's Leader?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Bry_Sinclair, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    We know United Earth exists, because we saw it on ENT.

    And of course United Earth would not cease to exist just because the Federation was later formed.
     
  2. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Down in the tube station at midnight
    United Earth pops up few times in TOS as well.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
  4. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Location:
    Finn
    I've seen a lot of people get confused with plots of sci-fi show episodes, even when they seem obvious to those who follow the show religously. I knew someone who didn't realize time travel was involved in TNG's All Good Things. He spent the whole time watching All Good Things.. thinking "WTF?".

    And this guy was quite a bright guy who would go on to become a school administrator.


    In other words, thinking it would be confuse viewers doesn't mean the producers think they are dumb....
     
  5. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    We also don't understand how the planets' governments relate to the UFP "federal" government.

    Maybe as it was an external foreign affairs issue, the "federal" government has charge.
     
  6. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Dunno, where's the First Minister of England? :p

    Maybe we should try to compare the Federation's political structure with that of contemporary UK. While Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have their own regional governments, England remains under the direct jurisdiction of the UK government (which means it effectively doubles as national government as well as "regional" government for England).
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    ^ But like I said, we already know that's not the case here. United Earth exists; we have seen it. And of course it will - it must - continue to exist even with the founding of the Federation.
     
  8. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    9th level of Hell
    First just because it once existed doesn't mean it still does. I mean how many years has it been since we heard of a ruling Earth Body? Early first season TOS, and most of that was in reference to a Space Agency and such, not necessarily a governing body.

    And of course most of those references were due just because the writers of TOS had yet to come up with Starfleet, and the Untied Federation of Planets. I think its only pre Federation Enterprise that consistently uses an Earth based governing body.

    For example we see no Earth government during the Probe's attack on Earth in Star Trek IV. All the decisions we see made are by the Fed President and the head of Starfleet. Nor do I believe we see any representative of an earth based government in the Motionless Picture. I believe those are the only TOS era events to threaten Earth, that we see before TNG.
    Based on what we do know I think its safe to say that the Federation and Starfleet seem to be the ones in charge when at the very least it comes to outside threats.

    There is probably a local governing body that handles internal earth issues, and even military forces or security forces for internal earth issues, or to supplement Starfleet. But I don't think after ENT we have any evidence of a local Earth Government that has say on External Security issues that face earth.
     
  9. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    9th level of Hell
    To some degree, but we really have no idea how much authority or power they actually have. it could be extremely limited. And technically by DS9 time, it doesn't have to exist in any form (i think it does, but it doesn't have to).
     
  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    Ever hear of Occam's Razor?

    Like I keep saying: It literally does not make any sense for there to be no Earth government. If there was not one, then Earth citizens would have no representation in the Federation - therefore, they would have no rights. That sound right to you?

    And there is nothing so magical about the Federation that would cause member worlds' governments to vanish when they join. There's no reason they would do that. It's inconceivable that the Federation would make such a demand. No world would ever want to join if it meant they would lose their own local government! Then the Federation really would be no better than the Borg.

    We don't have any evidence of a lack of one, either.

    And, non-canon though it may be, the novels have fully developed the structure of United Earth government, and they are of course the only way we are ever going to see any more stories taking place in the prime (non-Abrams) timeline, so their word is as good as canon.
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    I never fully realized this, interesting. I guess I assumed that the UK and England did have separate governments for administrative purposes.

    In America we (wisely) placed our federal capital outside of any of our states, is England ever treated as the "favored child" within the UK?

    :)
     
  12. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    Unfortunately, DC now has residents, which it was never intended to have. So for those who live there, "taxation without representation" is literally true. :(

    I'm sure Scotland and Wales sometimes claim it does (which would explain the attempts at Scottish independence) but I doubt it's actually true.
     
  13. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    9th level of Hell
    Actually it wouldn't take an Earth Government, after Federation Membership was granted to have Earth having representation in the Federation Governing body.

    In fact Earth has been shown to have representatives on the Federation Council, I assume this is the council we have seen in a few movies/episodes.

    We have no idea how those council members are chosen. It could be simply democratic vote.

    But to say Earth has to have its own governing body to have representation in the Federation is simply not accurate.
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen

    It's most likely.
     
  15. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    9th level of Hell
    Mr. Laserbeam

    Just to clarify when I wrote just because it existed (earth Government and the form it took) when Federation Membership was granted, doesn't mean that same Government still exists. I have already stated several times in posts today that I think some form of local Earth government must be there, but we have no idea of its scope and size and responsibility. It could be a vast government or it could have extremely limited powers and responsibility. We don't know.

    We know that at no time after ENT has Earth Government been shown to take care of Earth security. At least Earth security from external forces. Be it V'Ger, the Probe, or alien infiltration. In all those cases its either been shown to be starfleet, or Starfleet/ Federation President making those calls.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    ^ That's only because of dramatic necessity. Remember, there WERE supposed to be mentions of Earth's government in Homefront/Paradise Lost. But there wasn't enough time. They had the intention of doing so, but couldn't.
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Well, All Good Things did flat out openly state he was traveling in time several times in the episode(to say nothing of the aging/changed clothes between time periods) so it's not like it was some super complicated continuity thing drawing elements in from all seven seasons. Seems like your someone just wasn't paying attention. Having an Earth government present is no more complicated than people comprehending the president and governor of a state responding to a crisis in said state.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The philosophy of self improvement might have replaced government.

    Why do the drones need anyone to tell them what to do when when they're all conditioned to do what they ought to do anyway to improve and perpetuate the species.

    Vacancies are just filled organically, automated services just automate, and what with everything being free.... No taxes.
     
  19. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Location:
    9th level of Hell
    But the question is what was the role. Remember two things on this side. Ron could say it was the attention to mention it. But does that refer to himself or the head writer. Would it have been something that was approved by the powers that be, or was it just something that was originally part of the teleplay or original script?

    And again I don't know what that detail was. Was Earth Government the one in charge? Were they a supplement to Starfleet or the Federation.

    Was it more like here sign on to this, because we are doing it with or without you. There are many different possibilities, that without real detail make it impossible to really gauge what size, shape, and powers local planetary governments have in relationship to the Federation.

    We simply don't know.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Separating the residential areas from the Federal government areas, and simply retrocession'ing the residential areas back into Maryland would nicely solve that. While maintaining the Federal government outside of any state.

    Only a tiny fraction of Trek fans even read the novels, and there is no reason to consider their content to be canon.

    When was this?

    Earth is a member and probably does have Federation representatives, but I can't remember any of them ever being shown.

    Or United Earth's government might simply select them.

    And how would the people of Earth have any say in the governance of Earth itself, if United Earth had no government?

    Subsequent to the naming of the United Federation of Planets during TOS, we hear of a "Earth Federation." Possibly a separate organization.

    Need to move that forward at least another century in time. TOS makes frequent mentions of Earth bases and Earth outposts.

    And in TNG there were still colonies being created that were referred to as "Earth Colonies," not Human colonies, not Federation colonies.

    I believe the vast majority of the time Starfleet gets it's orders from the council, not the president.

    :)