Where did Spock go?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, May 16, 2010.

  1. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Location:
    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    Eh, it's a fan idea to use it one time, say if it's a character in-universe thinking "I don't want to use a transporter, what if it kills me and makes a copy of me?" (I haven't read the novel so I don't know if that was the case or not, but I doubt that the entire novel is build around that idea.)

    It would have worked as an interesting idea to have a fun discussion for a couple of pages. But 17 pages of people going back and forth and very seriously debating if all the characters in the fictional Trek world have actually been dying and replaced by their copies in every episode - in other words, people seriously arguing that they have discovered the truth about a fictional world that its writers, producers and actors have no idea about? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :crazy:

    Hey, maybe someone will use that as the explanation of the Trek inconsistencies? Spock from STXI isn't the Spock from TUC who isn't the Spock(s) from TOS, and in TOS there were a bunch of different Spocks in every episode - because he died every time he was beamed up and got replaced with another Spock. Therefore his changes in personality, so we get Shouting Spock, Smiling Spock, Inappropriate Sexist Spock, etc. :guffaw::p
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    #istandwithcbs
    Shaw, the STXI writers also write Fringe. They can be smart when they want to.

    They wrote Transformers too (and Transformers 2 :)), but that was always intended to be a special effects bonanza for children.

    Saying "we didn't gain any new fans" when we've had exactly one movie in the new franchise and exactly nothing else is silly. Until the next dose of Trek nobody knows. There's nothing to measure against (except maybe the faliure of the action figures which can hardly be used as definitive evidence that the next movie will fail at the box office).

    The DVD and Bluray sold millions, despite STXI being the most heavily pirated film of 2009. Maybe that's an indication.
     
  3. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    There's also precedent for travelling backwards in time into an alternate universe in In A Mirror Darkly.

    If there is one argument I'm willing to give credence, it's the the above.
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    #istandwithcbs
    The "alternate universe" thing is simply a changed premise based on more modern scientific theories.

    By going back in time and altering things Nero created a divergence point in the timeline. The timeline was the Prime one until it split. It wasn't previously existing, like "In a Mirror" (which would have created a split in the Mirror Universe when Defiant arrived)

    By "old" Trek time-travel rules STXI would have erased TOS (which is probably why Warped9 wants to "prove" this couldn't be the case). By the new, based on real-life theories (no matter how bizarre it sounds) every trip back in time creates a new branch on the timeline tree.

    Most of prior Trek can, just about, fit into this system (albiet impractically). Thus Janeway didn't "undo" anything in the Voyager finale, she just created an alternate timeline where events unfolded differently. STIV returned not to the future they left, but to one where two whales and a research biologist were stolen and a whaling ship was was spooked.
     
  5. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Yeah, I agree that pre-Nero arriving it was TOS.

    I was just saying that the alternate universe all along angle is much more sensible than TOS Spock goes into a black and hole and is replaced by a different Spock from a different universe who arrives in a different universe that was triggered when Nero had arrived in a different universe and created a different universe when he destroyed the Kelvin.
     
  6. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Guest

    Yes, exactly. I subscribe to the theory of timelines in this universe branching out from a common origin billions of years ago.

    Say you start with one timeline and someone has to make a choice between two things. If realities branch out, then you have a timeline where this someone decides to do A and a timeline where they decide to do B. Two realities branching out from one origin point. Now let's say in both realities, this someone has two choices to make once again. Two timelines have now become four.

    There are many possible futures but, if we look backwards, then the further back we go, the more in common these futures have with each other.

    That's how, in science fiction, characters can travel into the future and then, ultimately, the future doesn't turn out to be that way.

    It's also why the further into the future we try to predict, the more improbable it becomes. The slightest difference can affect everything else.
     
  7. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 1999
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    They rightly choose not to acknowledge it...much like STTMP didnt acknowledge a lot of changes to TOS.

    I think we have a case where a parallel universe met a parallel universe...AND a reboot overlaid a remake. Does that make sense?

    Of course it does..

    RAMA
     
  8. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    OK, fine. We can substitute "development" for "inconsistency" (And I happen to agree with your post, so I'm not trying to make an argument), but the end result is still the same: Spock as a character goes through changes from one aspect of Trek (TOS, the films, TNG, ST'09) to the other. So why is it so hard for one or two people here to accept that Spock Prime is the same as the TOS Spock? It wasn't difficult for me to accept it, and I'm just as much a fan as Warped9.

    (Don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.)
     
  9. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Guest

    Don't worry about it, I'm a former mod. I've really just been killing some time.
     
  10. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Location:
    Section 31 Headquarters
    The Major Star Trek Time Lines:

    Time Line A:
    (Prime Time)

    The Original Series Season's 1-3 - And it's 6 Films.
    The Next Generation Season's 1-7 - And Generations
    Deep Space Nine Season's 1-4
    Deep Space Nine Season 5: "Apocalypse Rising" to "Blaze of Glory"
    Voyager Season's 1-2
    Voyager Season 3: "Basics Part ll" to "Distant Origin"

    Time Line B:
    (Prime Time: Nearly Identical But Slightly Different)

    First Contact
    Deep Space Nine Season 5: "Empok Nor" to "Call to Arms"
    Deep Space Nine Season's 6-7
    Voyager Season 3: "Displaced" to "Scorpion Part l"
    Voyager Season's 4-7
    Insurrection
    Nemesis

    Time Line C:
    (Separate Alternate Time Line)

    Star Trek (2009)

    Time Line D:
    (Unexplained First Contact / Temporal Cold War Time Line)

    Enterprise Season's 1-4

    Time Line E:
    (Unexplained TOS time line)

    The Animated Series Season's 1-2



    In other words:
    Old Spock comes from Time Line B. A time line that is nearly identical to Time Line A (The Prime Time Line), but slightly different.
     
  11. xortex

    xortex Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Location:
    Staten Island, NY
    The prime time line starts with TOS Spock, why doesn't it end that way?
     
  12. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    #istandwithcbs
    Luther Sloan, exactly how did you decide those were alternate timelines? They look totally random to me.

    Or is what the point? :lol:
     
  13. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    On the USS Sovereign
    Character development is not the same as inconsistant writing. Spock did evolve over the decades, and was reasonable at a high level.
    To Warped9 and others: Are the producers and writers for the film that sloppy or not highly competent, or did they decide to change what we know about the prime universe to suit their needs???
     
  14. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    Either way what they claim isn't consistent with what they put onscreen.
     
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    And what exactly do they claim? That Spock Prime is the same Spock as the TOS Spock? Well, this whole thread is full of people who have given you reasons why it's the same guy, the producers of the movie state it's the same guy, even Nimoy knows it's the same guy, and yet you've simply ignored everyone just because they're not telling you the answer you want to hear. Well, this has now pretty much become your problem, not anyone else's. But you're welcome to your opinion. Not many people are going to agree with it, though.
     
  16. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    No, spoken like someone who hasn't been offered one shred of evidence to the contrary other than, "Oh, but that's not what they meant."
     
  17. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Location:
    The North
    "They should do what I want, not what they want!"

    Good luck. :lol:
     
  18. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Sorry, I edited my post after you replied to it. Here's the edit:

     
  19. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Warped old friend, I hate to do this to you, but...
    the Spock of the movie is the Spock of TOS. Because that's what the writers intended.

    By the same token, the Spock of TOS is not the Spock of the movie. Just because Nimoy happened to be the actor playing him doesn't make the 2009 film any more authoritative with regard to the events and characters of TOS than the series Enterprise was. TOS was a complete work in 1969. That has not changed.
    Abrams and Nimoy really have nothing to say about it.
     
  20. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    And there ya go.