Where did Spock go?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Warped9, May 16, 2010.

  1. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the next time Leonard Nimoy makes a public appearance and he's talking about it, you should leap-up and shout "liar!"

    and then you could have a powerpoint presentation explaining the truth.
     
  2. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the reboot Universe of the movie was distinct from the TOS one before the incursions.
    As to Spock Prime having a memory problem. he just saw Vulcan destroyed, with the psychic effects of all those dying Vulcans. And now he sees a young Jim Kirk. He indirectly admits he is not functioning up to Vulcan standards.
    For more speculation, maybe that universe is having some affect on his memories?
     
  3. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Let me guess... none of the characters from one TOS episode to the next were the same people, either, due to the number of continuity hiccups from episode to episode.

    No, they were the same, as is Spock in this instance. In movie and tee vee land, the writers say what goes. You don't need to be a fan of it, but coming up with this convoluted nonsense is a waste of time.
     
  4. heroes4evr

    heroes4evr Ensign

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  5. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    i see no on screen evidence of a satisfactory conclusion to this arguement
     
  6. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    What the hell do you expect Nimoy to remember continuity wise after more than forty years? He's an actor, not a writer or continuity consultant. He just gets paid to read the lines.

    Evidence is offered up to illustrate the point, but all we get from the other side is, "No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't..."


    You ask why it bothers me? I can ask the same, why does what I conclude bother you? If you liked the film then what do you care one way or another?

    :rolleyes:
     
  7. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nobody can resist correcting someone. Especially when what you're saying is as daft as this.

    The same Spock who has survived a million silly inconsistencies over the past 40 years will survive this one now.

    It's the same guy. It's Spock.
     
  8. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Nope.

    When I'm absolutely convinced of something there are no limits to my stubbornness.
     
  9. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Whatever floats your boat.
     
  10. Duncan MacLeod

    Duncan MacLeod Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I haven't seen the movie and don't ever intend to. But based upon what I have read about it I would like to offer another point of contention.

    Would the Spock who went back in time in COTEOF to prevent McCoy from changing the past, and who insisted that Capt. Christopher had to be returned in TIY to preserve the future; be so willing to write off the destruction of Vulcan and all the inhabitants, when he knew that this was not as history should proceed?

    I submit that the answer is he would not. Thus in the history that he comes from, there must be no conflict, and to his knowledge Vulcan was destroyed. If it were otherwise, then Spock, through inaction, would be condoning genocide.

    I'm sorry but the Spock of TOS would not do that.
     
  11. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Fans have come up with excuses for the continuity glitches in STXI just as they did decades ago with TOS, TMP, TNG and the rest.

    Warped9, you say it's the wrong Spock because he mistook the 25 year old Kirk for the 30 year old one. Five years? That is a joke. I'm suprised you haven't used Chris Pine's eye colour as "proof" of your conclusions yet, or that Captain Pike's not a bigot in STXI.

    The date the Enterprise was launched and the size of the ship? Starfleet rethought their shipbuilding after the attack on the Kelvin. Have the designs changed too much? No more than TMP did (or the large Excelsior design a little later), and those changes could have been the result of the Doomsday Machine encounter or another TOS event.

    Chekov's age? He could have been BSing when he said it in TOS.

    Delta Vega? I answered that earlier.

    You're probably gonna dismiss my, and everyone else's answers (as you repeatedly have) but they're just as valid as the excuses fans made for the stupid errors in TOS.
     
  12. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Well said.
     
  13. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's why we should consider what the writers intended. Obviously they want the TOS characters to play with, but young and hot instead of old and wrinkly. They also don't want to be concerned with crap like knowing that Kirk can't die for a few decades, that Scotty gets frozen till the 24th C, that McCoy lives to be 120, or that there's a Doomsday Machine on the way to hoover up planets.

    So to free themselves up, they whomp up a new universe that is similar enough to the old one that they can call it Star Trek, but where the future is unknown and therefore fun. The only question is whether this universe existed before the incursions, or came into being because of the incursions, but that's a fine point that has no bearing on the fun part, and therefore is unimportant.

    Works for me. More to the point: it works to resurrect Star Trek, and nothing else would have been guaranteed to work remotely as well. It's good that we got Star Trek back this way because we wouldn't have gotten it back any other way.

    You're mixing up time travel within one universe with travel between universes (with time travel happening there too, just to make it all the more confusing.)

    Kirk & the gang time travelled within their own universe in COTEOF to save the Federation because it was their Federation, and they'd grown to like it, plus they needed a ride home. In Trek XI, Spock's Vulcan was perfectly safe back in his own universe. The Vulcan that got blown up was a different one, native to this new universe. The existence of two universes (and really, it's at least three - have to count the Mirror Universe) may imply the existence of an infinite number of universes, in which case there are infinite numbers of Vulcans, some of them getting blown up and others not.

    Once you realize that, fussing over one Vulcan seems like an incredible waste of energy. Infinite universe theory holds that everything that can happen, does happen, in at least one universe. Vulcan can be blown up; therefore it's destined to be blown up, somewhere. Maybe this universe is that place. Trying to stop it from being blown up here guarantees it gets blown up somewhere else, so the whole thing is an exercise in futility.

    Or, maybe Spock decides, this universe is my home now. Let's see if I can undo the destruction of Vulcan, since regardless of whose Vulcan that was, people died and that's bad. Whether that causes them to die in some other universe is unknowable so I won't worry about that. So after the movie ends, Spock tries to time travel within this new universe. Maybe that's his project for the rest of his life. Maybe he succeeds and maybe he doesn't. Maybe he does time travel but can't stop Nero. He can try again and again until he dies. All that is beyond the scope of this particular movie.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  14. Duncan MacLeod

    Duncan MacLeod Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thank you. I trust it was logical as well.
     
  15. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's not his universe at that point, so it's not up to him.
     
  16. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This is still nonsense. Does every story told in TOS square logically with every other story? No. Yet we forgive and ignore it.

    But now suddenly it's a problem? No. It wasn't a problem then, and it isn't a problem now.

    Let it go. There are some things that benefit from this level of thought and scrutiny. This ain't one of them. These characters are not real people. Do not expect the level of consistency from them that you would from a real person.
     
  17. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    The old nuSpock can clearly see that Pine/Kirk is much younger than he would be when commanding the Enterprise. And so for him to exclaim surprise that Pine/Kirk isn't already in command speaks volumes that this can't be the TOS Spock who well knows what age Kirk would be when he takes command.

    The simple thing is Abrams and his writers ignored what TOS had clearly established. That's fine as a clean reboot, but by including an older time traveling Spock if they really wanted to connect back to TOS then they should have done their homework. Clearly they didn't and now it's onscreen and they're stuck with it.
     
  18. heroes4evr

    heroes4evr Ensign

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    Temis The Vorta I bow down to your explanation excellent post in my opinion.
     
  19. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They're not "stuck" with anything. The movie worked fine. The next movie won't suffer in any way, shape or form for it. Both it and the people who make it will be unaffected, unaware, and unconcerned. From what can be seen here, it would appear if anyone is "stuck" with something, it is you.

    Your need to rationalise and shape a completely malleable work of mass-media fiction that was/is designed to satisfy a large audience into what you want and expect is bizarre.
     
  20. Duncan MacLeod

    Duncan MacLeod Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This seems to be a moot point to me.

    Spock has acted to preserve worlds with which he had far less connection than an alternate universe Vulcan.

    And in any case it would still be genocide.