When was Bashir replaced by a Changeling?

[Enterprise1981]

Based on the fact that the real Bashir was wearing the older DS9 uni when discovered in "In Purgatory's Shadow," this probably took place before "Rapture." Other dialogue would seem to suggest this happened later. In "
The Darkness and the Light," Kira was due in three weeks and gave birth in the next episode. The real Bashir said he had been at the prison camp for four weeks. And then O'Brien said at the end of "By Inferno's Light", "Four weeks? Are you telling me I've been hanging around with a Changeling for over a month?"

 

[Navaros]

They just haphazardly inserted this on a whim. They tried to ret-con that which is not ret-connable. Thus, there is no way for it to really make sense in the episodes it was ret-conned into. Likewise with the Martok changeling.

 

[Timo]

I see absolutely no problem with the retroactive introduction of this plot element. Indeed, it makes it all the more enjoyable to watch "Bashir" in action when one has this retroactive knowledge...

Also, "Rapture" makes much more sense this way. "Bashir" sees a solid alliance between UFP and Bajor on the brink of completion. Then Commander Sisko gets a headache - and "Bashir" orders an "absolutely critical" emergency brain-mucking operation, out of which the Emissary comes in deep delirium and vocally renounces the alliance, causing the superstitious Bajorans to immediately withdraw... An exellent day's work for "Bashir", I would say!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

This topic comes up and I like to joke that it was long before even the new uniform switch over, like during The Search part 2 or when the Founders made Odo a solid.

 

[Timo]

Really, the true Bashir might have been killed years before the first agent was exposed - and the Bashir that escaped from the prison camp, as well as the Martok and Garak who escaped, would simply have been further Founder agents. It's not as if Bashir ever did anything much to help the Alpha war effort, apart from trying to undermine it in "Statistical Probabilities", or trying to find a way to save the Founders in "Extreme Measures". And during the critical final months of the war, Martok was declared by Gowron to be an incompenent and overcautious commander, losing battles he should have easily won; perhaps Gowron was onto something there? And perhaps the agent posing as Worf assassinated him for that reason?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

The unofficially official answer is shortly before "Rapture" when they changed uniforms since Bashir was still wearing an old style uniform.

 

[Marie1]

Really, the true Bashir might have been killed years before the first agent was exposed - and the Bashir that escaped from the prison camp, as well as the Martok and Garak who escaped, would simply have been further Founder agents. It's not as if Bashir ever did anything much to help the Alpha war effort, apart from trying to undermine it in "Statistical Probabilities", or trying to find a way to save the Founders in "Extreme Measures". And during the critical final months of the war, Martok was declared by Gowron to be an incompenent and overcautious commander, losing battles he should have easily won; perhaps Gowron was onto something there? And perhaps the agent posing as Worf assassinated him for that reason?

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think thats possible as in the IC they cut themselves to prove they weren't changelings- Worf, Bashir, Garak, everyone but the Breen, and well...

 

[Timo]

But then again, the blood test never revealed a single Founder, now did it? In fact, it was invented by a Founder, namely the one impersonating Martok in "Way of the Warrior" - apparently as a means of lulling the Alphans into a false sense of security.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

What do you mean? When Odo gave Bashir a sample, it turned into liquid. As far as I recall, everyone who was a Founder always avoided the testing... I guess they could steal blood and fake it maybe... if it was invented, wouldn't it have been from the one at SF headquarters?

I'm not sure I doubt that the ones in the IC were the real people... also, since the Founders can be discovered by hitting them on a phaser's low blast, there's always that option...

 

[Timo]

The sample that the assuredly fake Martok gave in "Way of the Warrior" didn't turn into goo, nor did any other sample of any other Founder. There were only three times we saw the blood test "work", and two of them were in fact faked: the sample in "The Adversary" was deliberately made to go goo by the Founder so that suspicion would be cast on the wrong person, and the sample in "Paradise Lost" was apparently just a holographic fake created by Leyton and had nothing to do with Founders.

So the only thing that the test could reveal would be the presence of an inexperienced child Changeling like Odo. And the Founder agents were all grown-ups...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

^The cutting yourself with a knife test was "invented" by Martok, but it was Odo who suggested a safer test in "The Adversary".

I think we're being overly paranoid if we're supposed to think anyone who wasn't revealed to be a Changeling over the course of the series actually was.

Martok was made out to be incompetent because Gowron was trying to wreck his reputation. That's the same Gowron we've been seeing since his first appearance back in "Reunion". To this day, I am absolutely convinced that Gowron killed K'mpec, and not Duras.

 

[Timo]

Now who's being paranoid?

No, I completely agree that Gowron was behind the poisoning, while Duras was behind the bomb attacks. But I also think Gowron was a reasonably good leader of the Empire, and Martok indeed something of an overtly cautious military commander; it was valid Klingon political maneuvering to play Martok into a corner by giving him an assignment that required sacrifices, and revealing him for an unsound (by Klingon standards) soldier. To consider Gowron a cowardly traitor as the consequence, or whatever Ezri's accusation, was gross overreaction, and only had a chance of working on the somewhat naïve Worf - but Dax would have known that already, and could have reasonable faith in the success of her plan to get her own man at the top of the Empire.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sisko4Life]

Gowron was a freakin idiot. Do you forget he tried to fight a two-front war against the Federation AND the Cardassians? Clearly a battle they wouldn't win...

And to make matters worse, he allowed himself to be manipulated by a changeling "advisor."

 

[Timo]

Do you forget he tried to fight a two-front war against the Federation AND the Cardassians? Clearly a battle they wouldn't win...

Why not? Cardassians were pushovers: Maxwell and Jellico had already humiliated them, the former with a single ship, the latter with a single shuttlecraft! It was just bad luck that Gowron had to stop slightly short of destroying all of the Cardassian Union at a single strokem, and veered off to DS9 (a bit like how Hitler was distracted by Mussolini's bumbling in Greece and had to veer off from Russia).

Gowron already got most of what he wanted with that maneuver: he became a celebrated military leader and unifier of the Empire, he got rid of the most incompetent warriors in his military, and he reduced the Cardassians from a third-rate power to a ninth-rate one, all while digging in on positions that allowed him to challenge the Federation soon thereafter. And he was faring rather well against Starfleet later on, at least until "Apocalypse Rising", and perhaps all the way to "In Purgatory's Shadow". At the end of the big war, he had established the Empire as a major power, allowed the Dominion to ravage UFP lands while apparently keeping Klingon planets safe, and played the Romulans into sacrificing much of their military to a supposed common good while still leaving them with the stench of traitors to the Alpha cause.

I'd say Gowron's heritage was an excellent one, leaving the Empire at a new high, triumphant and united. I just hope Martok can keep up the good work...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damask]

Really, the true Bashir might have been killed years before the first agent was exposed - and the Bashir that escaped from the prison camp, as well as the Martok and Garak who escaped, would simply have been further Founder agents. It's not as if Bashir ever did anything much to help the Alpha war effort, apart from trying to undermine it in "Statistical Probabilities", or trying to find a way to save the Founders in "Extreme Measures". And during the critical final months of the war, Martok was declared by Gowron to be an incompenent and overcautious commander, losing battles he should have easily won; perhaps Gowron was onto something there? And perhaps the agent posing as Worf assassinated him for that reason?

Timo Saloniemi

Interesting. However I suspect Worf was never replaced possibly because of time. Only Martok and Bashir. No matter Jadzia is killed off (Dukat waiting for Jadzia to be alone). Founder Ezri Dax pops up and convinces Worf to do something. Worf kills Gowron and Founder Martok rules the Klingon Empire. Worf is perhaps replaced later and Founder Worf is swiftly moved to the Enterprise to keep an eye of the Federation activites and gather intel.

You also that Romulan woman who might have been replaced also. Perhaps being involved in the Romulan/Reman conflict.

The Founders are just biding their time. They have agents at the top level of the Klingon Empire, the flagship of the Federation and perhaps the Romulan Empire. They also get the wormhole back working again and Odo rejoining the Link.

 

[Sisko4Life]

I'd say Gowron's heritage was an excellent one, leaving the Empire at a new high, triumphant and united. I just hope Martok can keep up the good work...

What the fuck? Did you miss them saying on screen that the Klingon Empire was so weakened from the wars that it would take them over a decade to rebuild? It specifically said on-screen that after the Dominion War the Romulans and Federation were the clear-cut powers of the Alpha Quadrant and the Klingon's wouldn't be a threat to anyone. They used 1/3 of their entire military just to [almost] conquer Cardassia!

 

[Timo]

Did you miss them saying on screen that the Klingon Empire was so weakened from the wars that it would take them over a decade to rebuild?

That was just the fantasy of the idiots over at Section 31, in "Inter Arma Enim Silet Leges". They apparently got it all wrong - it was the Romulans who collapsed in the aftermath of the war, in ST:Nemesis, not Klingons.

They used 1/3 of their entire military just to [almost] conquer Cardassia!

Yup - and probably they lost less than 5% of that 1/3 in the operation. At least we never heard of any major losses. As said, Cardassians were pushovers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sisko4Life]

It's easy to be a pushover when the enemy lauches an unprovoked all-out invasion against an unmobilized military. Does that make the Klingons pushovers for losing their entire Cardassian conquests to a fleet of only 50 Dominion ships?

Didn't Hitler try the same thing against the Soviet Union and get pushed back once they mobilized?

 

[Timo]

It would - if the Dominion achieved such a feat with just 50 ships. But such a number was never quite quoted, now was it?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

Now who's being paranoid?

No, I completely agree that Gowron was behind the poisoning, while Duras was behind the bomb attacks. But I also think Gowron was a reasonably good leader of the Empire, and Martok indeed something of an overtly cautious military commander; it was valid Klingon political maneuvering to play Martok into a corner by giving him an assignment that required sacrifices, and revealing him for an unsound (by Klingon standards) soldier. To consider Gowron a cowardly traitor as the consequence, or whatever Ezri's accusation, was gross overreaction, and only had a chance of working on the somewhat naïve Worf - but Dax would have known that already, and could have reasonable faith in the success of her plan to get her own man at the top of the Empire.

This was just after the Breen had wiped the floor with the Romulans and the Federation at Chin'toka with their energy dampening weapons. That left the Klingons as the only ones with working ships.

Gowron was ordering them to attack when they needed those ships to defend their existing positions. Even by Klingon standards that's just crazy.

"Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat" - Kahless the Unforgettable.

Even Gowron was wise enough to realise that three years before.