When did voyager go wrong?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even Spock got upset when the Aliens Of The Week™ kidnapped her.
     
  2. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And he does this in the name of peace, declaring that only peace can save us....shortly after he and his buddies kick ass, once Aeryn gives birth in a fountain while being shot at. I'm afraid this is why I say that Farscape is yet another example of a serial wrecking itself in a desperate attempt to keep things exciting and cool.

    Yes, the ship should be rusty, with gaping holes. Even the sails should be in tatters!:rofl:

    Sorry, couldn't help it, but this is such a silly objection that it's either laugh at it, or get angry about having my intelligence insulted.

    Interstellar travel may be carried out by devices called "ships" in the series, but they are not boats. They are not going to barely stay afloat. In fact, one of the most objectionable things about Voyager was the repeated use of the phrase "dead in the water," which is completely illiterate. A starship is either working and the series continues, or it is busted and everyone dies in interstellar space. The notion that there can be some random patches and the thing still works is absurd.

    Everyone's taste may differ. But the notion that the interpersonal relations on a starship are dramatically interesting doesn't suit mine, nor do I understand a taste that says it does. The Odyssey doesn't spend much time on the quarrels within the crew. If Voyager was supposed to be a survivalist epic, why have replicators and transporters and warp drive, none of which imply physical hardships. If Voyager was supposed to be a workplace drama, why have a starship at all? If Voyager was supposed to be some sort of serious drama about military command, it should have been set in a fictional universe with a realistic approximation of a military.

    PS My idea of the deus ex machina came from reading some Greek drama. There the deus ex machina referred to a God appearing and pronouncing judgment, as when Athena renames the Furies the Friendly Ones. The notion that it is a phrase for an out of the blue save for a happy ending seems to be some sort of slang use.

    In any event, the notion that Sisko somehow earns the intervention of the Prophets is the real issue. How had the Cardassians earned the right to enslave Bajor? How had the Founders earned the right to ferry armies through the Prophet's living room? The notion of "earned" rights does indeed come out of the blue as far as I'm concerned.
     
  3. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The audience reaction had been far more severe and critical than any other Trek show, and far less forgiving of the same things that happen in other Trek shows too. The fans just had it out for VOY far more than anything else, so yeah it is partially the fans negative reaction.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What do you expect?

    Why should we like Voyager more when DS9 was better?
     
  5. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Voyager is fluffier? Although DS9 had some fairly teeth-rotting episodes too.
     
  6. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Why is the notion "absurd"? There were several episodes where Voyager's hull was breached, which would need to be sealed somehow. Why should I expect all the hull breaches to be sealed so perfectly that there would be no evidence of their existence?

    Star Trek: Voyager and The Odyssey are hardly comparable. And even if they have the same premise, one was definitely executed better than the other. Liking The Odyssey doesn't mean I have to like Voyager. The thread is about "what went wrong", and I offered my opinion on the matter.

    While I don't watch much tv, as I understand modern stories don't have Greek Gods popping in to pass judgments anymore. So, yes, "deus ex machina" has passed into slang as a description of an "out of the blue" ending. If the corruption of the meaning bothers you, by all means continue reading the ancient Greek plays that were probably modern in your youth, and ignore the inappropriate usage of it now.
     
  7. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The way Starships are made in Trek, they use giant replicators to create the hulls and assemble them together while the more complex internal components are either constructed afterwards and installed, or are built first and then the hulls replicated around them.

    So, for repairs they'd use the onboard replicators (we know there are bigger ones for construction) to create factory spec replacement parts for the hull, so naturally it'd look like it fits perfectly.

    Problem was they didn't outright explain this and show it on-screen because it would've been too expensive to make a new "damaged" model either physically or in CGI at the time. Shows like NuBSG could do it because by then CGI tech had advanced to the point it could be used more easily.

    To be fair, Odysseus spend most of the Odyssey on Circe's Island, not being lost getting home. The getting home part is rather easily accomplished.

    The whole "lost ship" thing is a starter plot that's really only good for one or two seasons. After that you need something more gripping for the series' plot.
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    (not joking) Spitefully Poisedeon actually spent a good deal of time fucking with Odysseus's course because he built the sea walls at Troy which Odyssesus demolished. Poisedon leading whiley Odysseus in circles is somewhat comparable to Caretaker.

    You know that the whole Trojan war started with the judgement of Paris? A prince of Troy, this Paris kid, got inbetween Hera, Athena and Aphrodite in a beauty/who's coolest competition, some droll about Discordia's golden apple, but the three goddesses all tried to bribe Paris for victory over their peers to fall into their laps. Hera offered power, vast kingdoms and riches, Athena offered victory in battle and supremacy over all other weaker men and the beasts, and Aphrodite offered him the most beautiful woman in all the world to get a leg over with, unfortunately who was already married. Paris chose love, so Aphrodite won and then lines where drawn down Olympus about who was going to smite Paris and who was going to stick up for the squirt, which reflected the mortal conflict that was the 10 year long siege of Troy.

    Wasn't their a guy called Paris on Voyager's crew?

    Oh, wasn't Circe the one changing men into furries like Neelix?
     
  9. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I've inevitably come to the conclusion that there really isn't much that (Or at least not as much as people like to suggest.) separates TNG, DS9, and VOY in terms of quality.

    They all have their quality episodes; they all have their fair-share of stinkers. Each has great actors; each has cardboard planks. I think people generally over emphasize TNG and DS9 quality and underscore Voyager's.
     
  10. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As Anwar[/ib] said: Replicators. No one with a replicator would trouble to make a patch that didn't fit. If there aren't replicators, the linoleum from Neelix' kitchen or the paneling from Tom's quarters aren't going to serve as a patch. Nor are they going to run down to the scrap metal yard.

    The absurdity, not just of patches from nowhere but of any juryrigging, lies in the necessity that an interstellar vessel has to keep functioning, or everyone dies. The notion that the vessel can limp along crucially depends mistaking a starship in vacuum for a steamship on the ocean.

    Opinions aren't equal, nor do they have rights. Your opinion that foolishness about patches etc. is a particularly foolish one.

    First, watch Who Mourns for Adonais? if you can.

    Second, the Prophets are Bajoran Gods, which makes their appearance a deus ex machina in dramatic terms. (Pagh-wraiths are Bajoran Evil Gods.) They must be categorized as dei ex machinae.

    Third, you haven't attempted to answer the question: Why are the Prophets are suddenly willing to accept Sisko's efforts as earning a happy ending, when they never even showed much sign of understanding, much less interest? before? That came out of the blue, which even by the slang usage means deus ex machina.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You do understand that Sisko has always been a prophet watching all his human adventures from the comfort of the Celestial temple where he was just fucking with earlier versions of himself to preserve continuity?
     
  12. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But people HATE Enterprise. And the hate is fresher.
     
  13. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But...who could possibly hate ENT? Who? OK, maybe someone who likes drowning kittens for fun. But apart from that...
     
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The bitter ones. I pity them.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sadly, no. They don't hate the show as much, it's VOY that gets the most bashing these days.
     
  16. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You must revisit the ENT forum soon :). The hate is strong. It's the new geek in school. VOY is the sadsack you can't be bothered to pick on anymore except when you're bored or just want to remind everyone how badass you are (not).
     
  17. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I've come to a point in my life where bashing anything entertainment seems trivial. Critique it and point out its flaws on an (somewhat) academic level, sure, but to write something along the lines of "Voyager sux ballz!" just for the sake of it seems like a total waste of pixels.
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Unless you're writing that as a positive.
     
  19. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That does happen to be my interpretation, but I always hesitate to mention it, as it's a really, really crappy idea. The idea that Bajor had to suffer the Cardassion occupation so that Benjamin Sisko could become a Prophet/god, but no one comments on how deeply fucked this is, well, ti's just appalling that people consider it deep.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    History channel. I'm watching the history channel. Not a joke, and it's a documentary about Judas' involvement in the capture of Christ. It seems that before Peter simplified and abridged the 30 something odd books on Jesus circulating around the 1st century AD, and pared it down to something similar to the bible we know now, THE HISTORY CHANNEL, but there used to be a "Book of Judas" however it was decided the blokes in the funny hats that the concepts in the book of Judas were too complicated for the common pleb to grasp that Jesus could see the future (Garden of Gethsemane, he knew the nails was coming. One in each wrist and then a third through the ankles. It's a fact.) but he still needed a trigger man to force the Romans into martyring him so that he could apotheosize and the rubes would fall in line from his perceived, and not entirely staged, sacrifice pageant.

    (First ever episode of Punk'd?)

    THE HISTORY CHANNEL.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

    Hey look!

    It's real!

    Back to Star Trek.

    Sisko isn't "letting" anything happen (Okay? Maybe a little.), or forcing anything to happen(possibly a smudge.), or stacking the deck and preserving continuity at great sacrifice to the lives and well being of... Everything is happening simultaneously tot he Prophets. The Occupation and the renaissance of Bajor is the same moment from their perception, the Bajoran's are suffering and free all at the same time entangled and they can't tell the difference.... Free will Sisko did every thing he wanted to which created the reality he had already existed in.

    But did you notice how apt with linear time the Paugh Wraith was that possessed Kieko O'Brien? That gal must have been the poster child for normal as far as wormhole aliens go.