When did voyager go wrong?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    I think you are missing my point, you said the British and the Scottish had been at odds since the 1300's, which isn't true. What I think you meant is that the English and Scottish have had some differences since the 1300's.

    You said America sided with the English during WWII, which is true to a certain extend. But it wasn't England specifcially, but the United Kingdom of which England is a part that Ameriuca sided with as part of the Allied Powers.

    Don't refer to England when you actually mean the United Kingdom.
     
  2. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    No I didn't, I completely understood that you saw what I said as wrong because I used British instead of English. I accept that you see these designations in a different way than what I meant. It apparently confused you. What you are seeming to miss is my explanation that I didn't mean "political states" at all, I meant "regional" or "cultural" differences that can occur within "political states".

    Are you as careful in designating the difference between the United States, Canada, and Mexico when you use the word American?
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    MacLeod wasn't talking about America. That lad was talking about Ameriuca. I'm not certain where Ameriuca is in the world, but it probably deserves our respect for some reason.

    What I find interesting is that since the Union Jack Flag is a Voltronning of the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish Flags, if one of these countries was to retire from the United Kingdom, that the Union Jack would have to be abandoned or changed to reflect some smaller Coalition... But would all the other countries in the world with a Union Jack on their Flag, like Australia, then change their tiny Union Jack or is keeping Britain happy trivial compared to the cost of altering that much stationery?
     
  4. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Someone will eventually drop the union jack out of the Australian flag amidst great pomp and ceremony, most likely a newly elected government that has been out of office for a few terms and wants to make a fashion statement. Flag will look awesome with just the southern cross on it.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    By then the ambient smog will be so bad, you can't see any star fields from ground level, so you might as well nix the Southern Cross too.
     
  6. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There should have been more dissent between Starfleet and Maquis but I don't think it was a bad idea to have the Maquis quickly become Starfleet.

    It was clear at the time it was in their best interest to get along with the Starfleet crew. Also, even if they disagreed with Janeway's decision I can see some of the Maquis respecting it. The Maquis rebelled to fight against Cardassians stealing their homes. Janeway destroyed the array to stop the Kazon from stealing the Ocampan homes.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When Tuvok started serial killing Maquis in Repression... He had to select an order in which to kill the Maquis he killed didn't he? Janeway would have noticed if crew was being knocked off alphabetically, but since Vulcans are Vulcans, there must still have been a clearly logical pattern to his assasinations? Killing in order of height seems arbitary but what if he was killing the Maquis in an order of competency as reflected from 7 years worth of crew evaluations? Obviously since he didn't kill B'Elanna and Chakotay, the Vulcan machurian candidate must have been picking off the dead wood first.
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    But rightly or wrongly the term American is given to people from the USA, The term N. American would encompass Canada, Mexico and the USA.

    You forgot to mention places like Brazil, Peru, Chile etc.. after all aren't they in America as well (S. America that is)?

    But Scots, Welsh etc.. do not like it when people refer incorrectly to the UK as England, or use terms like British when they mean English or Scottish etc...
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She already that admitted that she understood all that, but had a temporary brain fart.

    These things happen.

    I have a wonderful bit, which pisses people off endlessly, where I claim that "America" as we understand it conceptually, doesn't really have a name of it's own, or at all, for some of the reasons your suggested before I get obtuse and tie the truth in a big fucking bow, that if it doesn't have a name then it might not exist.

    "The United states of America is just a description of a 50 regions on the greater continent of America, just like I could say that you are a bag of meat."

    And so on.
     
  10. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Proper names for "America?"

    El Norte?

    Or as William Shatner, star of Incubus, might say, Usono?
     
  11. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They should have named it Vespucci, then it might have had some Italian styling.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You know that Amerigo was a big liar.

    Why humour his ghost?
     
  13. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    LOL and you are mostly right. Now there is all these parts of the US that want to promote "state's rights" over "federal jurisdiction", they seem to have forgotten that we fought a civil war over that one almost one hundred and fifty years ago and they lost. Only then some states wanted to right to sanction slavery while it was prohibited on the federal level. The division was so bad for a while before the civil war that you couldn't bring in a new state without bringing in one on the opposite side.

    A lot of states are mostly alike, Louisiana and Mississippi for example. I'm from Texas and as we say here, "Texas is like a whole nother country." (FYI that isn't a typo). Oklahoma with it's multiple Native American cultures has a lot of diversity culture wise. Although if Mother Nature doesn't stop wiping it out with EF5 Tornados, everyone just might pack up and leave.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And you perfectly understand that you belong to a conquered and beaten slave race yourself my Texan friend?

    Texas was an independent country in it's own right for nine years until the capitalist pig US forces invaded, ate your women, raped your cattle, and planted their flag.

    How can you look at your face in the mirror every morning without the contempt of accepting that you let your evil overlords live?

    What an odd new thought...

    If Mexico had claimed your wide open planes instead of the US in 1845, and held on to those fresh and vital oilfields until some bastard knew what to do with them, would that have completely changed the shape of World War One? You can't tell me that Texas, Mexico and Germany wouldn't have sucked Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana in after a ridiculous show of force, situating a Greater Germanic Republic on the American continent, all but castrating the US as a superpower in the 20th century?

    Oh, and if Kaiser Willy had won the first one, then Hitler wouldn't have had the political disporia to draw upon creating his own disgruntled powerbase, and stuck to house painting.

    Oh. Did I just blame Texas for the hallocaust?

    Sorry, these things really do get away from me sometimes.
     
  15. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    Probably not Guy, you do know that when Texas was petitioning for statehood they were putting pressure on the US by threating to claim all the territory from the edge of the Louisiana Purchase to the Pacific Ocean. Oh and Mexico did try to reclaim the Texas territories which is why the US had to fight a war with them in the 1840's after Texas was declared a state.

    I don't think that there was any kind of conspiracy to take Texas by the Germans because the second wave of immigrants came over to escape the First World War, but that was after Napoleon tried to set up his puppet Emperor in Mexico in the 1860's. He was probably pretty pissed at the deal the US got to purchase the Louisiana Territory and saw this as a chance to get a foothold in the Americas. That worked just about as well as his idea to invade Russia in the winter.

    You can say a lot of things about Texas but it has never been dull. LOL Did you know we have a state lizard - A Texas Horned Lizard otherwise known as a Horned Frog and (ok don't laugh) or a Horney Toad.

    [​IMG]

    Kind of an ugly little thing, but you know it can shoot blood out of its eyes. A fact used by Texas Christian University whose mascot is a Horned Frog.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M-dW6EAmc4
     
  16. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    ^He looks like a little Jem'Hadar!
     
  17. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That looks like the bearded dragons we have here.
     
  18. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be clear, I have watched the show through the first 5 seasons since 2010, and I came away unsatisfied, feeling it was a waste of time to watch the show. DS9, by comparison, has aged well, as has TNG.

    My complaints with the series begin with how it was started. If Voyager was a mission that reflected our needs in man-space-travel outside of the solar system (right now), where we had the infrastructure to grow our own food, raise and train our replacements, find a perpetual energy source, and did this by telling stories over the course of their mission (years, not just the first seven), I think the show would've avoided the TNG label and it would've been the same blank palate that the show wanted by going to the Delta Quadrant. Why would we sign up for such a mission? Because we are explorers. I think it would've been great if they had an engine to get to the Delta Quardrant, but not one that could get us back.

    Even if they didn't do that, there's a lot of unexplored territory with the Maquis-Starfleet conflict. This is where the show could've shined. Having two different agendas would've been great for a post-DS9 show. But alas, it played for a season or two and was gone, and when it did play, it was more like two squabbling children, than the gravitas of two intelligent competing arguments. I think they didn't go dark enough with how the Maquis officers would want to start their own colony, etc.

    My major complaint with Voyager is this--they did original stories. But their iconic moments were based on dealing with races we already met--especially the Borg. It was pop-culture Trek that relied on too many old faces. DS9 had "The Dominion," and gave relevance and re-defined the Cardassians, Ferengi, and the Bajorans. TNG had "The Borg." And even during the run of TNG, there were plenty of alien-of-the-week stories that stood on their own. Seven of Nine and Icheb, Seska is a Cardassian, etc all relied on knowledge of the Trek that had come before it. Like I said, Pop-culture Trek where they used what was popular, and never did anything that made me think "I understand the Cardassians better because of Seska," or "I understand the Borg better because of Seven of Nine." It was unoriginal during most of its run, and that made it a bland version that's not worth remembering.

    The actors performances of the material was also bland. The Doctor and Kes aside, most others were not giving performances that were memorable in a good way, that caused me to have an emotional connection to the characters. I think Kate Mulgrew overplayed a lot of her scenes. I think she was a stereotype of a 90s woman in that role, as it was still new to have a woman leader. 20 years later, her performances look horrible. I think Robert Picardo is the only exception to what I am saying here.

    I think the show had a lot of promise, and didn't do anything with the characters. They lacked intelligence and gravitas that the TNG characters had. Like it or hate it, you believed the the TNG crew was this moral. There's something disingenuous and preachy about Voyager that I never liked.

    That's where it lost me. I don't know about any others.
     
  19. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^^DS9 Cardassians are Space Nazis. If that's your idea of enrichment, your judgment is suspect.

    And, of course, the insistence that there are untapped depths in the Maquis critique of rancid Federation humanitarianism just tells us something about you, not the series. The Maquis wanted war, not a colony.
     
  20. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I had the time to watch a couple of episodes, and geez, they are really wasting screen time with extremely painful to watch Seven of Nine explores humanity shit. It's not the idea that she explores humanity, it's how the writers let her do it. Holy shit.