When did voyager go wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A friend, who is stupid, once told me that Bruce died trying to punch faster than the speed of light.
     
  2. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You made me spit my tea out.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How fast did the tea fly out?
     
  4. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was the speed of thought, so kind of a dribble.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    HA!

    Where did Voyager go Wrong?

    The kept inventing new shitty aliens when they should have just be trying to get the ones which had already been created right.

    Voyager gave us a hundred or so new species?

    5 or 6 of them are worth talking about.

    And when it gets down to it, of these 5 or 6 villainous species, who do the producers chose as their dread big bad?

    The Borg.

    Handmedowns from TNG.

    It's like they gave up.

    Lazy shits.

    We don't need to create something awesome, when we can just rape the past for credibility.
     
  6. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Like how TNG did all that stuff about Klingons who were hand me downs from TOS?
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You might as well say that Humans are Hand me down from TOS as well.

    It's 4 days to Qo'noS from Earth, which means it's practically the same planet.

    That was the shape of the Alpha Quadrant.

    Voyager was set some place alien.

    So unimaginably far away that it would take a massive coincidence small universe syndrome fluke for Janeway to bump into anything the slightest bit familiar.

    :)
     
  8. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But we already knew the Borg were in the DQ from TNG and we already know the Borg are expanding rapidly every single day as their imperative towards perfection so it seems to me that not having Borg be part of an epic journey across the DQ would be more stupid than having them there.

    Imagine if we never saw them, everyone would be bitching about how VOY failed by not even having the villains TNG had already told us would be there! What was the point of having a whole series set in the DQ and then not even having the Borg, those absolutely premiere villains that assimilated Picard and Q talked about?! All these "what is wrong with VOY" threads would have smug enraged tomes about how there were no Borg instead of smug enraged tomes about how there were Borg.
     
  9. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    You know this happens in fandom too, I can think of one J/C writer who's demise is uncertain and who left behind a niece to care for her legacy of fan fiction. (She actually wrote a Chakotay gets pregnant with Janeway's baby story.) She was gone before my time in the fandom, but her name still comes up.

    Mostly these are not the BNF's of the fandom (Big Name Fan), but rather the 'wannabes". The only BNF in J/C that we are pretty sure died is Dakota.

    I do know of one or two (or maybe more, who knows with all the sock puppets) that have tried to commit cyber subside. Which is interesting because you trash your alter ego so much you might as well be dead, but can still walk around, and if you want you can become someone else too.
     
  10. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    OMG Brit. I feel like I have missed out on something totally awesome. I should have spent the 2000's building up a fan following and then "died" and then watched my mystique rise. The really sad thing is I'm not even kidding.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    (Good Morning Brit.)

    Actually we didn't.

    There was no mention that the Borg were from the Delta Quadrant until First Contact, which is most likely after the Borg Costumes had already been earmarked for the Voyager Wardrobe department already.
     
  12. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But we know they were very very very far away in uncharted space. And FC is TNG, as in a TNG movie.

    And if there was no Borg in VOY people would be listing that as one thing that VOY went wrong with.
     
  13. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    The first reference that the Borg came from the Delta Quadrant was on a very visible screen display in the seventh season premiere of TNG.
    http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s7/7x01/descentparttwo010.jpg

    First Contact maintained continuity from that.
     
  14. Kathy Kringle

    Kathy Kringle Commodore Commodore

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    About the Borg on VOY:

    I get annoyed every time someone says there was "too much Borg". In my opinion, TNG used it, a few movies used it, many novels used it. The Borg got used pretty much everywhere except DS9 and TOS.

    After watching 90% of DS9 (which I love, I'm on Season 7 now!)...the Dominion were a threat spanning multiple seasons and were shown constantly. I am so sick of them at this point that I just wish the Federation would blow them to bits NOW.

    I can honestly say I did not "get sick of" the Borg on Voyager. How can you when you have characters aboard the ship who used to be Borg who you've grown to care about? And the Borg, out of any of the "antagonists" including the Dominion were probably the biggest threat in Star Trek...ever. So the fact that they were the main "bad guys" in Voyager made Janeway blowing those suckers to pieces even more satisfying. Even though she did not destroy the entire Borg collective, killing that :censored: queen was an awesome scene.

    The Borg also represented the taking away and removing of individuality...not caring what happens to specific cultures or individuals and only caring about growing larger in numbers and creating more drones. I can't think of any other threat that great. Even the Dominion in DS9 left people as individuals, even though they weren't the most likable or understanding beings. They didn't turn people into lifeless drones.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry to say, I am in the camp there was too much Borg in Voyager. Two things in regards to that. One, the Borg were presented very differently in Voyager as opposed to TNG. In TNG they would actively analyze and adapt as Riker put it, to maintain a high level of threat. In Voyager they couldn't blow their nose unless they assimilated someone who knew how to. Not to mention there's only so many times they can show up and lose before they start to seem less of a credible threat. In the later half of Voyager, season 4 and on... they were a regular element for better and worse. They were in perhaps half a dozen TNG episodes through their whole run(and only one movie... and they were briefly in DS9's pilot)... Voyager averaged that many a season.

    Then there's the nonsense that's the Borg Queen. To be fair TNG has to share the blame on that one too since they introduced her in First Contact. Once she came into the scene the Borg stopped being this alien, scary collective force... and just became another disgruntled bad guy of the week, not much different from say... Culluh. The concept of the Collective was they were supposed to be infallable, a collective mind working as one, all their strengths contributing to the whole, so it's hard to beat them or for them to make a mistake. With the Queen... now you just have an emo girl with serious rage issues who's a parody at times... just look at how insane she was in Unimatrix zero for example. Blowing up a ship of thousands to eliminate one rebel drone? May as well drop an H-bomb on New York to eliminate one terrorist.

    Plus, the more a villain appears, the more watered down they get so the heroes can beat them. The first time the Borg appear they beat the Federation flagship without breaking a sweat, then they take out a whole fleet and nearly destroy Earth. As Voyager progresses, they routinely engage Cubes with little consequence or damage. Heck, there was one episode where they engaged a supercube briefly and -it- had to stop for repairs after a brief exchange of fire. And by endgame, Voyager's blasting them down like they turned godmode on in a video game. DS9 wasn't free of this either, though it wasn't quite extreme. When the Jem'Hadar were first introduced they took out a Galaxy class starship... by season 7, a runabout could take out one of them. And if you're sick of the Dominion and want them to be blown to bits... well in season 7 you may just like the... extreme measures... the Federation takes. ;)
     
  16. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Precisely. Pre-FC the Borg were just cyborgs and not that scary to look at. With FC and their redesign and the focus on assimilation came along this Cronenberg-like body horror stuff. Their true horror in TNG was the annihilation of individuality and the stories always dealt with this topic. "I, Borg" basically stated that the Borg as mere creatures are fine, the problem is their collectivistic ideology.
    All that stuff in VOY about Seven and later the Borg children, regaining their individuality and so on, was said so much more poignantly via Locutus.
     
  17. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    For me, the weakening of the Borg began with TNG's "I, Borg" and "Descent". The seeds were there even with BOBW Part 2, once a way was found to attack them from within.
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well I, Borg really did touch upon the loss and regaining of individuality. Their plan to upload a picture that would drive them nuts was sketchy at best, and I don't think it would even work.
    [​IMG]

    As for Decent... well that was a goofy episode to say the least. It wasn't even about the Borg so much as about Data and Lore. I don't see why Hugh's reassimilation would have any lasting effect. Don't they assimilate individuals regularly anyways? So I'm inclined to think Lore just somehow hacked that funkified ship so he could control those drones. Though even then the ship was way more powerful than the Enterprise and it took outsmarting them by luring them into a sunblast to beat them.
     
  19. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    Yes you did LOL. I came into the J/C fandom in 2003 just in time for the last major kerfuffle. It was very impressive.

    Have you heard of MsScribe, and the problems she caused in the Harry Potter fandom? This Voyager one was just as awesome but I don’t have IP addresses and such. The only thing I figure is that I can use it in an original book.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wasn't meaning too much Borg, I was annoyed that the Borg was Voyagers "big Bad" instead of an ordinary little "Bad". What if the Dominion hadn't worked out, if Ira had no faith in himself, that he would scrap everything to take the easy Borg ratings... And then what would Voyager do down the line? Borg up as well? And what about Enterprise? It's not like they would consent to ratings pressure and junk their temporal coldwar or Future Guy?

    Nice snap shot C.E..

    I'm watching Decent Now.

    "euuuugh".

    They didn't know what a transwarp conduit was before this episode started, but they were able to "extrapolate" where Lore's ship came from, which turned out to only be a short jaunt of 65 light years which would have gotten them no where near the Delta Quadrant.

    The extrapolation as wrong.

    Lore's base of operations was only 3 weeks away from federation space at cruising speed, if we take Voyager's one thousand light years = one year as wrote. But Riker described that it would take star fleet a few days to rescue them once Beverly abandoned them.

    Q threw Enterprise a year and a half away in Q Who, but then distance isn't really a problem for the Borg is it?