When did voyager go wrong?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    What is the etymology of "catsuit" anyway? Anything I could find on the subject was pretty non specific. Does it just come from the fad of applying feline traits to feminine sexuality?
     
  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe Cat Woman wore it first?
     
  3. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ No, Emma Peel predates Cat Woman.

    I think it's just because the outfit is sleek, like a cat.
     
  4. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But didn't Cat Woman wear it in the comics?
     
  5. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Probably. But catsuits have been worn by dancers (both male & female) since jersey existed.
     
  6. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Cathy Gale was wearing them before Mrs. Peel. The Avengers is probably what started the trend. Those fashionable Brits and all.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So what did the bunheads wear before Lycra and/or spandex was invented?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  8. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    They just showed a lot of leg, like this weird short from 1944.

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHL89xyfgs[/yt]


    If embed doesn't work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHL89xyfgs
     
  9. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Voyager went wrong when they let DS9 take all the best TNG writers.
     
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It might not have been a bad idea in hindsight for Voyager to have waited a few years later into DS9's run.

    The conditions may have been more suitable for more featured television slot, to say nothing of DS9 and Voyager not competing against each other essentially for most of their respective runs.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Foolish.

    Berman needed two shows running so that they couldn't push him out.

    He was so blind to his waning power that Rick assumed consolidating everything into Enterprise meant that he was sure to make a better show that would translate into Job security from bosses who wanted to destroy him... What consolidation really meant was that he almost had no shows on the air and that his superiors could soon fire him.

    It's like when you're playing one of those old games where you don't respawn 50 thousand times, how it doesn't mean that you are necessarily going to play better just because you've wasted and shredded all your other lives. Nothing is going to change that you are an idiot who is going to hang himself in the same way who needs... Did Berman really think that Voyager was only less beloved than DS9 because DS9 was made by superior craftspeople, and that if Enterprise wasan only child it would suddenly be the only fish in a small pond? yes, I said it. Dude was jealous. DS9 numbers plus Voyager numbers = Enterprise Numbers. I mean what are the stupid DS9 people going to do? Wag off and watch Battlestar Galcitica?

    If when Enterprise failed, there was already a second show still running in parallel beside Enterprise, it would have cushioned Berman and saved his job and they wouldn't have been able to stop Rick from starting to tool for a new series to replace Enterprise for sheer terror of how he might tank the 10s of millions of dollars of their money he was already juggling, if they piss him off while he's still in control of a Star Trek program and midwifing a second.

    (I say this as if Berman had any power to make these choices when he was most probably only a fraction less fates bitch like everybodyelse.)
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Ah, Tuvok. In my opinion he was Voyager's saving grace a reason to tune in even after the show seemed to go off the rails.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well Tuvok struck me as the competent non-flashy person the show needed. The Doctor was the one who gave even the bad episodes snippets of entertainment for me.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Picardo is a great actor but unfortunately I never bought into the EMH even a little bit.

    It's a shame they were shooting for so many "gimmick" characters on the show, Zimmerman would've been fine playing a human CMO.
     
  15. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    They were never going to wait to launch Star Trek: Voyager; a Trek show had to be ready to be the UPN flagship in 1995.
     
  16. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    You could probably blame Berman for a lot of things, but the idea for a fourth and fifth Star Trek show wasn't his, but rather UPN's. If it wasn't for UPN, Trek would have continued in the syndication route and Series IV probably wouldn't have launched until either 1999 or 2000. Given what happened with Paramount in 2006, there may not even have been a Series V if it wasn't for UPN.
     
  17. SonOfMogh

    SonOfMogh Commander Red Shirt

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    I've read most of this thread, and found some of the discussions quite interesting. I neither hate nor love Voyager unlike some, I think some people need to realise that there where a lot of things the producers were not allowed to do back then.

    The thing is, VOY did have the best premise of the Trek shows, however in order to do it justice they would have needed to approach every aspect of the show very differently. They wanted 26 standalone stories per season, and that alone killed 90% of the potential, given this restriction they did a good job. For what it's worth here are my random thoughts;

    *As external conflicts would have always been difficult to develop, internal drama should have been a priority. I personally would have had a massive amount of Voyager personnel killed in the pilot, meaning most of the qualified and elite crew are gone. I'd probably have done something like this for the crew;
    - Janeway- 1st officer of Voyager, takes command after death of Captain. From a science background, not as much leadership experience as other Trek captains, takes failure really badly and doesn't have absolute confidence in herself, utterly determined.
    - Maquis Captain- Grudgingly accepts 1st officer role despite having more experience than Janeway. Early in the show considers mutiny, possibly even attempts it, realises that he doesn't have the crew to staff Voyager and as such is forced to comply
    - Cardassian Crewmember- A high ranking military officer captured by the Maquis and held aboard the Maquis ship. Beaten and interrogated on a daily basis for information prior to the Maquis being stranded in the DQ. Initially put in the brig aboard Voy for his own protection. Voyager's Ops Officer was killed in the pilot, Kim has been manning the post but doesn't have the experience to do it and the ship suffers as a result, in the absence of other qualified personnel Janeway allows the Cardassian to take the position, and tutor Kim, over the complete objection of all serving Maquis. Having spent years coordinating Cardassian personnel he does an outstanding job but is a source of conflict.
    -EMH- Similar but make his desire for equality a bit more subtle and no mobile emitter. If the crew consider abandoning ship it means abandoning the Dr.
    - Kes- Stick with the concept and don't get rid of her! Have her very immature early on, show her desire for a normal life through the early seasons with Voyager crew disturbed a 3 year old is hitting on them etc. Have the show finish with her as an old woman, having lived her entire life parallel to this journey.
    - No Neelix, or at least a massively different Neelix.
    -As for other characters, either make them more interesting or change them.
    It goes without saying the Maquis would have no desire to put on Starfleet uniforms. If that moment comes I'd expect something special to lead up to it

    *As for damage/support/repairs etc- Obviously neither proposed extreme is ideal. What they had was ridiculous, the ship may have well been in the AQ. Having no repairs would mean the ship wouldn't be able to survive anything or go anywhere. I think if the hull is badly breached and there is visible damage, they need some kind of explanation for it's repair (use of a friendly alien shipyard for example). It would be great too if there could be some sign this had happened, different coloured panels on some sections for example. Internally, if the bridge is trashed in an episode, it would be better to have it be trashed in the next episode, looking slightly better each week as the debris is cleared and the walls are repainted etc. Even if this all happens in the background in 1 episode, it is better than magically regenerating. Have certain corridors be wrecked and fire damaged for an episode or 2 after big battle, the crew doesn't need to discuss it, just be a nice visual for when they are walking through discussing something else.

    *Rationing and low resources should have led to some interesting moral debates. The possibilities here are endless.

    *Holodeck shouldn't have been used at all

    *Given that Voyager was alone and without the backing of the Federation, their treatment from hostiles should have been far more brutal. Even if an enemy has an advantage over Picard's Enterprise, they don't beam aboard and start executing his crew because they don't want to be at war with the Federation. There were opportunities for some intense scenes. I also hated the way Voyager/Janeway had to "win" at the end of each episode, it comes across like kids TV sometimes. Have Voyager threatened, attacked and narrowly escape with their tail between their legs, watching these proud strong characters have to deal with that is far more interesting to me than Janeway "taking out the garbage"

    *On a related note, no Janeway/Borg Queen conflict. It literally became a Saturday morning cartoon. Surviving the journey, and trying to keep some cohesion within such a diverse crew would be far more compelling. Since external threats could never be that well developed (given that Voyager doesn't stop), then the antagonists should be looked at like The Walking Dead's zombies, they cause the problems that create the drama but are never going to be developed.

    *Given the show was set to run 7 seasons, a change of pace from time to time might be good. For example if Voyager suffers massive engine damage, have them land on a planet for repairs, but due to the amount of damage that story could run 4 or 5 episodes, just think it through in advance and make the planet a particularly fascinating one and the story that's told there be something that really holds the audience interest.
     
  18. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    i don't think voyager ever 'went wrong'. with the exception of the odd brilliant episode, it maintained the same level of mediocrity throughout its run.
     
  19. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    I don't buy this, why make Janeway lesser than what she was. You really have to be carful here. Females can captain starships and we are shown over a period of years that female captains are the norm. I personally prefer the experienced female captain. I also prefer a Chakotay that is smart enough to know that he is dependent on Janeway and her crew as much as she is dependent on him and his crew.


    This is where you lose it for me, you disregard the core idea of all of Star Trek. That mankind is changing for the better and that in the future we are going to be considerably better species than we are now.

    But aside from that, "Voyager's" reoccurring cast has to be likeable people to the widest majority of the audience as possible. That is why we saw Chakotay, sacrificing his ship to save Voyager, that is why we saw Tom Paris go back to rescue Chakotay. Those first impressions are important to set the direction of those characters, to tell the audience that these are trustworthy characters. The Trek producers went to a great deal of trouble to set up the Maquis as freedom fighters, not terrorists.

    And finally Holodecks are a fact of life on starships, that was set in Next Generation. You might not care for Holodeck stories, but like it or not holodecks are the norm for starships. In other words it would have looked funny if they didn't have one, and the producers went out of their way to explain that power used on holodecks was not compatible with the rest of the power on the ship.
     
  20. SonOfMogh

    SonOfMogh Commander Red Shirt

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    Hey thanks for reading my essay!

    It's all personal preference at the end of the day, but to address/ clarify your concerns;

    1/ Janeway being weaker and less experienced wouldn't have anything to do with her being a woman, I'd be happy if DS9 had a badass female captain and Voyager had a weaker male captain. I just personally think it would be interesting drama, the Starfleet crew outnumbers the Maquis crew so significantly that they cannot run the ship at all without them, yet they feel they should be in charge. I personally think that's fresher than Chakotay deciding in episode 1 that Janeway is awesome and that his entire crew should become Starfleet officers. Would be so much more effective if that respect and loyalty was EARNED, and the more obstacles in Janeway's path to earning that respect the more rewarding for the viewer.

    2/ The Maquis is a terrorist organisation. The entire point of terror is to try to incite change because your enemy fear the consequences of defying you so much. They blow up military targets and kill Cardassians. They would certainly interrogate a Cardassian officer for information. Janeway's crew would be more like the TNG Starfleet officers we know, and would be HORRIFIED by this, and sickened to have to work with these people, making the entire scenario far more interesting to watch.

    3/ Yeah, holodecks were used frequently on TNG, a show where every few episodes the ship was headed to Starbase XXX for repairs/refuelling/upgrades whatever. The best thing about the Voyager premise is that they would be stripped of luxuries, having the holodeck working, when replicators are rationed and they have to grow and cook food is ridiculous. I know the explanation in series, but still they were ordering drinks et in bars on the holodeck, if that aspect of the system is being powered separately to the replicators why not just make the holodeck into a giant mess hall and stop rationing all together. Just a strange decision so they could do random one off stories that deviated from the crisis these people were in on a daily basis.

    I respect all opinions, can't all be alike, just my thoughts