When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ReadyAndWilling, May 1, 2010.

  1. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Any particular religious doctrine is entirely separate from whether we have a 'soul' that can live independently of our bodies. Some scientists think near death experiences are caused by carbon dioxide build up in the brain! I wouldn't object if Trek lore definitively established the existence of the soul as distinct within the matter stream but they shy away from the religious stuff. The Barclay stuff is open to interpretation. I think he's only aware in the instant that he starts transforming from one state to another, in spite of what his perception tells his brain.
     
  2. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the first logical answer is Federation law - even clones have legal rights so copies can't be treated as in any was expendable. The second logical answer is power consumption it takes a lot of energy to producde a living being and recycling their original matter is the easiest way. The third logical answer is that a full transporter scan requires dematerialisation (which is what makes the person cease to exist as a biological being - I don't like to think of it as killing) so that the pattern in the buffer is alive rather than static and effectively dead.
     
  3. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    T'Girl

    The formation singing, music which is inscribed on the dvd is like one's parents having sex and the mother giving birth to the child.

    And again - it does not matter how perfect a copy is - it is still a copy. The ultimate criterion - you have two dvds in front of you. Or two Rikers. NOT one original.

    "neither Riker 1 nor Riker 2 is a original, the original Riker was murdered/killed by a transporter the very first time he went through one, likely when he was still a child. The original Riker has never been on the Enterprise, so how is Riker 1 the original"
    True. I choose to call Riker1 'original' for the purpose of simplifying the explanation.

    "would you agree, if the original actual material living substance of the person who walked into transporter was the material living substance of the person who walked away from the beam down point, that meant that it is the person?"
    Sure, why not?
    But that's NOT what happens in 'Second chances' - here, this 'matter/particles/whatever' is duplicated. This episode invalidates such theories.



    And about the morality of all this:
    Isn't it ironic? For all the moral posturing of the federation, they kill each other like flies. And as long as this is not noticed, they can delude themselves that it doesn't happen.
    It's not the only blind spot in the federation's sacrosant morality - have you watched TNG:homeward lately?

    Why don't they "scan the original officer, send the copy to the planet (whatever) and then the original officer steps off the transporter platform"
    Because this defeats the purpose of the transporter: fast, easy "transportation" (or the illusion thereof); no conventionally sent hardware to the surface.

    "Can you explain the extra step of killing him?"
    As far as the federates are concerned, the person at the destination IS the person, and the energy/pattern still at the departure point becomes irrelevant - "it" is purged simply because rematerializing the original would mean creating a "new" living being, playing with life and death - and the federates sure want to delude themselves they don't do that.:guffaw:

    "(Oh and Special Agent Gibbs wants to see the body.)"
    The remains (atoms/particles/whatever) of the original are spread through half the quadrant. Something messier, where you have no choice but to acknowledge you're a murderer, would offend the federates' sensibilities - most likely leading to a cesation of transporter use in short order.
     
  4. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

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    During normal operations of a transporter you DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT create a second beam, and thus make no copy.

    No, they WERE to superposed of a mass of particles, however at the moment of splitting them, and producing the second Riker, the transporter did more than simply producing a wave function, it added the energy needed to materialize a second pattern, separating it completely from the former wave form - much like alternate realities can split apart from each other. At first, there's one wave form of two or more options in a decision super imposed on each other, and then the decision gets made, and each option splits apart in a separate reality.

    This time though, instead of realities, it's two Rikers in the same reality.
     
  5. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    O, but it does. Otherwise, there's NO way a random phenomenon would make the transporter generate an EXACT copy:
    "In order to copy a human being, one needs to have all information that describes this person (down to the quantum level, apparently) and one needs to have a huge amount of energy to 'build' the copy from scratch.

    And, given the incredible precision work and huge energies needed to copy a human, a random phenomenon can't explain the EXACT copying of a person satisfactorily.
    A random phenomenon would result in two puddles of organic goo that were once Riker.

    The only way the transporter could copy Riker so perfectly is if the transporter is designed to copy people, if it works this way"

    So - you're using the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, not the copenhagen one.

    Well, the process you describe as being responsible for bringing Riker2 makes NO quantum mechanical sense, even if you believe in many worlds theory (and that's a BIG if): what part of the many worlds theory allows you to transport a particle from a divergent universe into your own by 'adding energy'? Let alone a gazillion particles in a precise configuration?

    That being said, the theory is quite imaginative (if scientifically inaccurate) - it beats ignoring 'Second chances' if one wishes to save the main characters from being viewed as serial killers:rommie:.
     
  6. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

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    Nope, this second body does not get generated during the normal operation of a transporter, thus, normally, there's no copying around. Only once this special case the entire prorcess was over, was a copy created.

    But again: NORMALLY this copy is NOT created. Therefor, during NORMAL operation of a transporter, NOBODY dies to be replaced by a copy/clone. Even in this special case, Riker did NOT die to be replaced by one or two of him, there's simply two of him.

    This could work for Reg, but it doesn't work for the people he and others pulled out of the transporter. These people, being inside no machine, being but a mere quantum mechanically entangled collection of matter and energy still entangled together, went toward Barclay; they were alive, and functioning. Even without having any representation left in any transporter system, they were still intact enough for the transporter to rematerialize them. This can only happen if the person remains intact during transportation.

    Again, during the transportation process, they DO have DNA, a brain, sensory organs, and all other organs. They remain both intact, and energy, at the same time.

    Only because the tranporter operator captured Riker twice in two transporter beams. Only THAT caused a duplication. Normally there is no second transporter beam, and thus NO duplication.

    You are trying to erroneously apply what happened in a special non-standard case onto standard normal cases. This is a logical fallacy.

    Except of course, that they do not do this.

    Except of course, that they do not do this.

    Except of course, THAT ONE DOES NOT GENERATE A COPY when transporting a person from place to place. You send the actual person.

    Seriously, how often do I need to explain and say the same thing?

    I nowhere said anything about transporting someone from a divergent universe to our own, but eh, keep trying to put words in my mouth.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  7. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    Last time I checked, a living being getting dematerialized (be it by a transporter, a phaser, or an old-fashioned nuclear explosion) sort of technically counts as 'death.' :)
    Except you don't generally get put back together after the latter two.:guffaw:
     
  8. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can't recall the exact plot. Remind me how they were able to materialise the others without a pattern in the buffer again? It might help me to understand the point you are making. I thought it had something to do with microbes whose natural state allowed them to exist within the transporter beam? Wasn't it the microbes, like the pollen in Tuvix that allowed them to throw the normal rules out the window?

    This is what I don't understand. I thought that a quantum scan is taken by the transporter lock and stored in the pattern buffer (so both the individual AND their pattern exist at the same time for an instant then the matter is broken down and converted to energy and sent to the ship on a subspace carrier wave. Here's what I found quoted from Memory Alpha:

    "Next, the lifeform or object to be beamed was scanned on the quantum level using a molecular imaging scanner. At this point, Heisenberg compensators took into account the position and direction of all subatomic particles composing the object or individual and created a map of the physical structure being disassembled amounting to billions of kiloquads of data.
    Simultaneously, the object was broken down into a stream of subatomic particles, also called the matter stream. The matter stream was briefly stored in a pattern buffer while the system compensates for Doppler shift to the destination.
    The matter stream was then transmitted to its destination via a subspace frequency. As with any type of transmission of energy or radiation, scattering and degradation of the signal must be monitored closely. The annular confinement beam (ACB) acted to maintain the integrity of the information contained in the beam. Finally, the initial process was reversed and the object or individual was reassembled at the destination."

    The problem I can't get past is that when matter is turned into energy in order to be transmitted, the physical being is no longer alive. Nowhere here does it say that the physical matter exists at the same time as the energy. It quite clearly states that the object is broken down to a stream of subatomic particles. How is that not fatal to a living being?

    What we need is some kind of evidence that consciousness is preserved in the matter stream but that seems like a fantasy to me. DNA and memories make up a person and DNA and memories are what are copied by the imaging scan in order to 'reconstruct' i.e. copy the original person.
     
  9. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    Whoah. Umm... but, yeah!
     
  10. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

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    Again, for the fourth time: you do not get reduced to energy and just energy; your body and consciousness remains intact.

    They could do it by grabbing onto them. The stuff that allowed them to remain together allow Barclay and co. to grab onto them, had however nothing to do with them remain conscious and their bodies remaining intact. The only thing the stuff did, was prevent them from completely degrading into energy and disappearing with a massive flash of light.

    Matter turned into energy? Where does it say that? There's a MATTER stream, MATTER. Aka, material, matter, mass, NOT energy. They're telling you right there, the matter is not dissolved into simple energy.

    And yes, the object is broken down into a stream of subatomic particles, but the fun and difficult part of quantum physics, is that particles can have two different states at the same time; they can even be in multiple places at the same time. You can also have "spooky action at a distance", meaning that particles can entangle, one particle here and the other a million lightyears from here, a thousand years in the past or future or in the present, and anything that is done to one particle, effects the other, instantaneously.

    This is how the Transporter gets around the pesky "you kill someone problem". You get to BOTH turn someone into a stream of energy, AND keep them fully bodily intact, AT THE SAME TIME. It's difficult to grasp indeed, Quantum Physicists are fond of saying, if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics. And even with the next step; M/String-theory around already (where things get even weirder), even today the full ramifications and possibilities of quantum physics are not known. But this kind of stuff can be done.

    And why it doesn't explicitly state that; well, it is only a non-canon technical manual written by some people who aren't quantum physicists, who wanted to create a plausible sounding tech description. That they missed one part of it :shrug:

    The episode with Barclay IS evidence of this. The consciousness is preserved and active throughout the transportation process to the point he can see, reason, and move about.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  11. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    *COuGhBuLLs**T*

    Sorry. What was that you said?:rommie:
     
  12. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    Nope. I didn't ignore the episode.

    Like I said before. Just because you see two people doesn't mean one is a (copy) of the other. If someone time travels back into the past to encounter himself, which one would be the copy or the original then? Neither. Both are the originals.

    In "Second Chances": Riker #1 (soul and spirit body) takes it's normal car ride onto the transporter and ends up back on the ship. However, somehow because of a freak occurrence within nature, the second containment beam (which is not a normal operation of transporting) had enough power to be reflected back down at the surface and create another identical soul, spirit body, and physical structure.

    You could say that the episode is the same thing as someone traveling back in time to encounter himself. There really wouldn't be any difference between the two (except for the method of transportation).

    In other words: the transporter essentially gave birth to an identical twin or another original and not a copy.

    I mean, you have to admit. The fact the containment beam had the exact same phase differential as the distortion field seems a little too coincidental or too perfect. It almost sounded like a miracle had happened, if you ask me.

    Furthermore...

    We learn in "Second Chances" that...

    1. Crusher verifies that Riker #2 is genetically identical (and is not a clone (i.e. copy) from Riker #1.

    2. Both Rikers rematerialized from one complete pattern.

    3. Both Rikers are stated as being equally real.

    4. Both Rikers share the same memories up until the point of the transporter incident.

    5. Riker #2 is only different in the fact that he had different experiences than Riker #1.



    Pauln6:

    There is a common thread of truth that exists within the majority of these religious doctrines that the soul can exist outside the physical body inside what is called a "spirit body". Which suggests that there may be some truth to the concept. Also, report after report tells us that the life after death experiences are usually a spiritual (out of body) experience.

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence06.html

    Heck, there are even people out in the world today who practice astral projection (i.e. using the spirit body to travel distances far away from the living physical body). Which just like Satanism, it is the Occult and should be strongly avoided at all costs (according to Bible believing Christians anyways).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection

    Actually, Star Trek has used religious stuff many times within the various different series. Deep Space Nine and the prophets is a clear example. Also, there have been a few quotes from the Bible within Star Trek, too. Sure, religious stuff wasn't always present. But Star Trek definitely didn't shy away from the concept, though.

    Uh, no it's not. There is what a character originally meant (i.e. what it really is) and then there is interpretation. In other words: if interpretation is not used properly, it can lead you away from what the original meaning is.

    Maybe. However, the point is that we know that the transporter stores the memory of the person they are transporting while they are in an energy state (DS9's "Our Man Bashir").

    Also, Reg said that if he didn't know so much about the transporters, perhaps they wouldn't scare him so much.
    Obviously he would know about the arguments that Emory Erickson got into about the transporter being a copy machine (as mentioned in ENT's "Daedalus").
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    :)
    A couple of years ago while doing volunteer work at a hospital, I got into a discussion with a Doctor about near death experiences. She said this, "What is death? Death is that state from which you do not return. Ever." The other Doctors in the lounge seem to agree.

    :)
    Definitions, when I use the word YOU, I mean the current personality that inhabits your mind/body.

    But just because your heart isn't beating and your blood isn't flowing through your veins does not mean you are in fact dead. Obviously while the energy is in transit between the ship and the ground (regardless if it is ultimately you or a copy that materializes) there isn't a physical heart beating in the chest of a corporeal being. If it's you that survives the the journey, corporeal-energy-corporeal, there is no death. You live. If it's a copy that emerges, then there is death. You die. So it is not the conversion to energy that kills you, it the hypothetical destruction of the original pattern that accomplishes that.

    :)
    Identical Twins have the same DNA and a copy could conceivably have your memories. What (I believe) makes you a individual person is the unique personal sense of self that is you. Sorry if this gets too metaphysical, a copy could be given your memories, but those memories were a gift, the copy did not accumulate those memories over the course of a life time. You did. They are your "property."

    :)
    You have not explained the necessity, (or perhaps the preference) for creating a copy aboard the ship (where a original is available), sending the copy as energy to the surface (instead of the original), rematerializing the copy (instead of the original) at the destination. Would it not be both easier and simpler to just send the original?

    Your sole reason for destroying the original would seem to be to perpetuate a deception that the transporter process requires the death of the original, when it appears that the death of the original is in fact a option.

    :)
     
  14. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It seems the whole debate boils down to two things:

    1. Whether a digitised personality is a 'real' personality.

    I happen to think not since DNA and memories are physical things linked to our bodies - a personality loaded into a robot body or a holodeck program is NOT thinking in the same way as a biological entity (or at least not in the same way as a human) unless their entire brain and DNA is also duplicated in the same (albeit artificial) form (i.e. closest I can think of is Ilia). I think they just APPEAR to be the same person because they are programmed that way. To me, the EMH should not have been protrayed as a person i.e. human, but rather a simulation of a person in the same was as Ash and Bishop in Aliens think quite differently to the humans despite having a superficial similarity. He would have been FAR more exciting if he had been a bit off - like the replicants in Blade Runner (but less psychotic). Trek's allegorical roots really let them down when portraying societies and psychologies that think differently from how their audeince thinks (V'Ger being a notable exception).

    If digitised personalities still count as the real person then the transporter is not producing a copy but is re-integrating the person back into the copied body.

    2. Whether humans have a soul that is quite separate from their physical being and that is capable of being sent to the transporter site at the other end to 'jump' back into the reformed body.

    Of course if Trek folk all have a soul then God must spontaneously award them to clones and copies like Tom Riker as well if we want to treat them as 'real' people and possibly sentient artificial beings? This is a bit wibbly wobbly for me. I'm willing to entertain the notion that some part of us can float off to another dimension when we die, I'm less enamoured with the notion that they enjoy transporter trips. However, if we assume that our souls are not quite so individual and are not linked directly to our bodies but rather that God is using them as a focal point to peek into this universe then that's ok, the omniscient God can re-establish the link with the reformed body and the 'real' person is preserved.
     
  15. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    Pauln6:

    See, but that's just the thing. How do you know that the transporter process just doesn't flawlessly turn you into energy and restores you back to original state without killing you? Just because you de-materialize and then re-materialize doesn't mean you die and get copied.

    [​IMG]

    In other words: the transporter actually works like this....

    1. Your physical body de-materializes.

    2. Your soul (i.e. mind) and spirit body travel along for the journey because you are not technically dead because you are changed into energy during the de-materialization and re-materialization process.

    3. You get converted into energy for transport with your mind attached.

    4. Sometimes you are able to perceive that you can move a bit inside the matter stream even though your physical body doesn't move from the point it entered and to the point it returned (Again: this is probably your spirit body or a mental image of yourself in the energy state you are living in).

    5. Your mind is retained in the energy conversion process (which suggests you really are not dead).

    6. Your physical body re-materializes back and is indistinguishable on a genetic level from the physical body that stepped onto the transporter pad.

    In other words there is no evidence to suggest that the body is in fact killed. It is simply converted into energy (with the mind attached) and then converted back to it's original form.

    I mean, it is sort of like someone flashing out of phase for a second and then coming back. However, just because the body is deconstructed and then put back together flawlessly during this process does not mean in no way that it is still not the original person. The body simply could have been out of phase and the body could be perfectly put on hold or stored in an energy type state.

    [​IMG]

    However, if you are still doubtful: there is another piece of evidence that suggests that the transporter is more a car ride (or a transference) than it is a copy machine. In DS9's "Field of Fire": O'Brien attaches a micro-transporter to the muzzle of a TR-116 rifle and beams a bullet in order to hit a target through a wall. When the bullet re-materializes and hits it's intended target, it ended up having the same kinetic energy as it had when it was first de-materialized.

    I mean, how does the transporter destroy, digitize, and then replicate kinetic energy? The simple answer is that it doesn't.
    The bullet simply gets phased into energy and continues to travel along in an energy like state (within a second or two) and then it re-materializes on the other side with that same kinetic energy.

    If the transporters were to exist for real, perhaps this is how it would have worked. But in Star Trek, we are given evidence that the transporter doesn't operate this way. It presents to us an impossible thing that bends the laws of normal science. We either accept what the series tells us about this fictional device or we reject it. It is that simple.

    Not if your body doesn't really die and you are flawlessly phased and re-phased (i.e. de-materialized and re-materialized) during the transporter process. But let's say for example that the body did die during the process: do you really think your soul would leave your body that quickly (especially when there is higher power out there that knows what it is going on)?

    As for Tom Riker being an approved new identical twin (or an original) that has come into the world: Well, there are all kinds of life out there that is not the standard norm in todays day and age. Just because the creation of this life form came about differently doesn't make it any less likely that it could have existed.

    From the Bible, or other doctrines, and from near death experiences, we learn that there is a spirit world (i.e. unseen dimension) that co-exists within our physical world.

    Also, God doesn't need to peek into our universe through a person in order to see what it is going on. He can clearly see both the physical world and the spirit world because He is God (The maker of the Heavens and the Earth).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  16. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

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    And thus you are dead. If this is indeed what happens, you are now dead.

    No, you're dead. When a phaser blasts you are also tuned into energy and sub-atomic particles. Aka, dead.

    No, when you rematerialize a copy of your body and brain is recreated, and thus a copy continuous living.

    Aka a copy or a clone, and not yourself.

    Your mind is not free from your body. Your mind is simply contained in the brain; it is entirely physical. The moment you dematerialize there is no body, and thus brain and no mind.

    No, because flashing out of phase still has you remain intact.

    No, that is exactly what it means.

    Except that's not what happened.

    That's because if the copy machine does it's copying correctly, kinetic energy gets copied along with it. If it didn't, then transporting a person would result in them dropping dead; the blood would no longer have its kinetic energy and thus stand still, the same goes for neurons, chemical substances, the heart, etc. etc.

    Simple answer is that it does. Kinetic energy is simply a vector an attribute of a particle, and it gets recreated along with everything else.

    In your concept; no. It gets dematerialized and a copy is made.
     
  17. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location and destroying the original aboard the ship (one does NOT create the copy aboard the ship because this would defeat the whole purpose of the operation - the 'copy' would have to be, in turn, copied to be beamed down anywhere).

    But you should say that in 'Second chances' Riker2 is a trespasser from a quantum parallel universe - if you want to have the transporter NOT be a copying machine.
    You see, this is the only explanation that has Riker2 NOT be a copy cooked up by the transporter, but be brought from another reality.

    Sure, the theory doesn't stand up to rigurous scientific scrutiny, but this is star trek - it doesn't have to. Furthermore, in TNG:Parallels, it is impllied that in the trekverse there is a way to travel between quantum parallel universes via a 'subspace' - aka magic - anomaly.
    All you have to do is reconcile LaForge's confused technobabble with this theory and voila! the transporter goes back to transporting people kept in a form of stasis.


    If Riker2 didn't come from another reality, he was created by the transporter from scratch, and that's way too complex a piece of precision work to be done so perfectly without the transporter being designed for it, without the transporter NORMALLY doing it (and, usually, destroying the original) - which negates your 'it's a logical fallacy to apply a special case to the normal case' argument.

    Your theory:
    , if not supplemented by 'trespasser from another universe', blatantly brokes quantum mechanical fundamental rules (wave function collapse), when applied to 'Second chances' - as I've already explained to you:

    "And don't even think of suggesting that the Rikers are two superposed states of a particle - that blatantly contradicts quantum mechanics.
    If that were true, the second one Riker changes even in the slightest, the second Riker must disappear (wave function collapse of a 'fuzzy' particle/Riker, as per quantum mechanics). This does NOT happen - aka Riker1 and Riker2 are distict persons."
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  18. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

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    Not at all. The transporter is NOT designed to make copies, it's design to keep a quantum mechanical pattern intact. In this special case two beams were used, so the pattern was kept intact twice, and both of them materialized. Nowhere is the transporter a copy machine, even if in this special case a copy was created.

    Again, I already explained to you why it does not. I'm not going to repeat myself over and over, and you quoting yourself isn't going to change the fact I already addressed this.
     
  19. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    3D Master, when the wave function of a particle collapses, it collapses to a SINGLE STATE for that particle.
    It never collapses to TWO separate states for that particle! Two Rikers.

    Your 'explanation' IS nonsense according to fundamental quantum mechanics!
    And you most definitely did NOT address my counterarguments. You may want to actually read my posts in the future, 3D Master, before claiming you 'already addressed them'.
     
  20. 3D Master

    3D Master Rear Admiral

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    In the normal average event of a particle collapse, yes. This is not such an event.

    You don't know fundamental quantum mechanics.

    I HAVE already a addressed your counter arguments. That you refuse to listen to them and keep quoting yourself is not my problem.
     

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