Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by King Daniel Beyond, Aug 6, 2013.
No more fanwank ships please.
THOLIANS! Yes! I still remember seeing the episode "The Tholian Web". Most alien looking aliens I'd ever seen! They reinvented them in "Enterprise."
I'd like to see an alien that we haven't seen yet. So no more borrowing from TOS or the early movies.
I admit I do love the Tholians and would like to see them appear again. A movie budget would allow for seeing their true forms in CGI more easily.
Put me down for:
No transwarp beaming. It's still stupid.
No "skydiving" scenes.
No immature Kirk, and no references to Kirk's cavorting. Let's let the man grow up.
I'd be down for some Tholians, though.
I don't want to see Khan in ST III. Maybe in a future film, but not this one. Let him sleep for now. Forever, if that's what it takes.
They've done that bit quite enough, IMHO. I want the villain (if there is one) to be someone other than Khan. I have nothing against the character or Cumberbatch - I thought STID was great. But they should let that drop for now.
Tholians would be bad ass.
I agree they shouldn't do any more with Khan, that's just overkill.
It would be nice if they didn't use plotlines from the original movies, because then every trekkie in the room is going to know what to expect, basically, that's how my sister and I felt in the theater. We figured out mostly everything before it actually happened.
Something kapow! would be awesome. Tholians fit the bill.
To me, the point of having Khan in the cryotube was a throwback to how Khan came back in "Wrath of Khan" after "Space Seed." It should remain nothing more than a nod. The only reason to bring Khan back is if they're going to make him something other than an antagonist.
There was a moment in "Into Darkness" where I honestly thought in this universe Khan might end up not being an enemy.
Thing is, I still don't see Khan as the enemy in STID. Marcus, sure, but I feel sorry for Khan. They made him a bad ass, but they didn't sell the war criminal, genocidal madman side of the character. Sure, he's a superior asshole, but his people are being held hostage and loaded into torpedoes, he was blackmailed into help Marcus, used to attempt to start an interstellar war, Starfleet (from his POV) issued orders to kill him and his people when he didn't. He's got a right to be pissed off at Starfleet, I was cheering for him for a good portion of the movie.
I kind of rooted for him as well until the heel-face turn at the end.
You bring up a very good point - expecting us to both feel sorry for him and yet expecting us to understand that he was a monster not to be trusted (per Spock Prime) was somewhat schizophrenic and not totally reconcilable.
No TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, or other movie rehashes
No revenge plot, no singular villain or antagonist
No Romulans or Klingons
Yes exploration themes, a TOS theme revisit would be OK
Yes Kirk the problem solver, cunning strategist, and tough decision maker
Completely agree. Using Khan as an unexpected good guy would have been interesting. Not knowing where this was going did keep me more engaged in the film than I otherwise would have been.
Perhaps not, but that side was still there. Just because Khan was being forced to work for Section 31 does not make him a good guy. His very nature prevents him ever being that. Put all of the rest of the Augments into cryotubes and Khan is still as evil as he was before that. Nothing Khan ever did in STID justified his prior crimes or erased the memory of them.
It would be like a convicted serial killer, on death row, providing information to the police. That doesn't magically cause that person's crimes to vanish. It doesn't make them good. Some people are just evil for evil's sake, and always will be. Khan clearly held no remorse for any of his crimes on Earth (indeed, he fully admitted he would RESUME his work if given the opportunity), so why call him good?
As far as I'm concerned, Khan DESERVED everything he got. He deserved to be a tool of Section 31. Remember the Eugenics Wars - Khan and the rest of his ilk tried to take over Earth and exterminate anyone who wasn't a genetically engineered perfect being. I find it a fitting punishment that he is forced to work for the very people he tried to destroy - and would still try to, if he could.
In TOS, from word one we knew Khan was a killer, a crazy mofo. Yeah, they give lip service to the Eugenics War and what he did and would do, but up to that point they played him as a sympathetic foe. If you knew nothing about Khan, they failed to sell him as the ultimate foe of the Enterprise crew and the reveal of his identity is just out of left field and doesn't feel like it works in context of the movie. He's not a good guy, but he never felt like the enemy either.
Exactly, he seemed perfectly reasonable until he went apeshit and tried to kill everyone. Individuals like that are by far the most dangerous opponents of all as you don't see it coming.
A Klingon will always be dangerous but everyone knows that they are, its the ones you don't see coming that you have to worry the most about.
Of course that is easy to say in hindsight, but Marcus made the mistake knowing full well what Khan was and he paid for it with his life.
Strong hate without showing it leading to something bad. Was the climatic punching bag scene followed up in any way?
Speciesist maybe but not racist as I understand it
Which is one of the biggest reasons I don't want Khan back in III. He's story is done, Marcus is dead, and he's back with his people--even if it is in suspended animation. Bringing him back, would cheapen his character.
Worf would disagree.
No, it's true.
Go ahead, try and tell me that Worf isn't dangerous...
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