What would have improved Voyager?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by arwag, Dec 24, 2007.

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  1. Angel4576

    Angel4576 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nearly true. It's the strongest of all 'modern' Trek. TNG is incredibly dated, Voyager was never that good to begin with, and Enterprise was largely a mess.

    The first season aside, DS9 still holds up very well today.



    Kes, Harry, Chakotay.....



    Voyager was hardly ever able to generate any momentum, instead finding itself checked by long strings of weak standalone episodes. Good episodes were all too often diamonds in the rough.



    Yet compared with the Fairhaven episodes come across as being works of high hilarity.


    Star Trek's rarely done that well, at least not in its modern incarnations. However, again, I'd take the Sisko/Kassidy Yates story over that of Paris and Torres any day of the week. That was just a complete yawn, and detracted from one of the few dynamic relationships that actually had worked on Voyager up until that point, that of Paris and Kim.



    I particularly liked Chakotay's and Seven's 'long term' relationship.



    The Borg were pretty much wasted for four years.



    Yet far stronger than Voyager's second, third, sixth and seventh seasons, and still contained some of the series' best standalone episodes.



    Voyager's second and third seasons could easily give TOS's third and TNG's first and second seasons a run for their money. As far as modern Trek goes, DS9's first season is no worse than TNG's or ENT's. I'll give Voyager credit on that one, as its first season was IMO, one of its best. Sadly it went downhill for a few years afterwards.



    Inconsequential when viewed against Voyager's ability to repair any and all damage in between the end of one episode and the beginning of the next. Of course that's just the tip of the iceberg, but I don't want to be seen to be nitpicking.....
     
  2. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And there is no way to get home? and they have no communications to home? and half the company is made up of members of em.. the IRA?

    In a real military situation, there is constant rotation of personnel, there is infrastructure to back you up, you can ask for a transfer. It's an entirely different situation - even on extended tours, the soliders know that if they don't get killed, one day they are going home - on Voyager, they don't know that and shouldn't act like that. They are stranded, their actions should be informed by this, they never are - they just do TNG again with the odd nod to the fact that are on the other side of the universe.

    But that's just nonsense - you only act that way because you are still operating within the context of that organisational structure. In fact, what you say ties directly into what Moore says about the series, nobody seems that worried and they all act like they are going home soon - they don't know this and shouldn't act like that.
     
  3. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nothing at all against you Angel but this board in general leans heavily toward DS9, so much so I've even seen some posters go as far as denouncing Roddenberry or believing they know more than him just to uphold DS9 as if was sent down from Mount Olympus. Due to that, it's hard to view posters opinions of it as unbiased.

    The moral & ethical lessons covered in both TNG & Voy. hold up to this day just as well as the ones in DS9, regardless of whether the scenary does or not. If it wasn't for TNG, DS9 wouldn't of had the budget or template to make it hold up well.

    Without TOS or TNG, there would be no DS9.
     
  4. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Angel4576, you seem to want to mistakenly believe that my post you responded to was intended to be a DS9 vs VOY rant but it was not.

    I was simply pointing out that all Trek shows have issues and that despite what rabid Niners would have people believe DS9 wasn't flawless. You seem to think I'm a VOY fan trying to elevate VOY and deride DS9. I realize that occurs often on the internet but that wasn't what I was doing. I was only addresing problems I saw with DS9 without the need to bring VOY into it for comparison.

    In fact, I prefer DS9 over VOY but I think it is unfair the way people slam VOY and then pretend DS9 never did anything wrong or never had its share of missteps.

    I'm not saying that Kim, Chakotay, Paris are any better than Jadzia. Frankly none of them interested me as they were portrayed. But by simply saying Kim et al are a tad worse than Jadzia doesn't change the fact she wasn't that interesting a character.
    Once again that is your opinion many others might feel differently. I don't find TNG that dated and still enjoy it a gret deal. VOY had some good episodes and I really enjoyed ENT in seasons three and four.
    Once again degrees of mediocrity is all that I see separates them. Why the need to bring VOY into the discussion? It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of DS9's Ferengi episodes. Still the episodes were bad and doesn't reflect well on DS9.
    I didn't care for that either. You seem to believe I liked all the things I didn't like about on DS9 as long as they were on VOY but that isnt the case. I'm not a VOY defender but I do get tired of all the blind adoration of DS9 and the blind hatred of VOY.
    But did I ever say that the Borg weren't wasted. I felt a lot more could have been done with UZ resistance. But as everyone loves to point out DS9 wasn't VOY it is better so why didn't these capable writers do more with it?
    But these responses you've provided tell me that DS9 did have these problems, and therefore wasn't flawless, but you can only counter them by saying that while they might have been bad on DS9 they were worse on VOY.

    And why couldn't VOY repair itself since a lot of the time we don't know the amount of time that passed between episodes. And did we need episodes dedicated each week to see the crew repairing the ship. Nor did I need to see shuttles constructed. Nor did VOY need arcs to be good.
     
  5. Brennyren

    Brennyren Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I start out talking about storytelling values and the next thing I know I'm a symptom of what you see as being wrong with contemporary society -- and I'm supposedly advocating a point of view I don't even agree with. :::sigh::: Teach me to shut down the computer and go to bed! ;)

    The only answer I can offer to this, Eminence, is that I really don't think saying that VOY should have exploited its premise for facets that would make it unique is quite the same thing as saying whoa! let's eliminate every traditional value, ideal, and standard of normalcy in society. Nothing I said suggested I was an advocate of anarchy. And I am not. Indeed there are some traditional values and ideals I might quarrel with, and I could happily debate all day on what constitutes "normalcy," but this forum really isn't the place for that. I was, and am, discussing storytelling. And on a storytelling level, I say: telling the same story over and over again gets old.

    When a thread's titled "What would have improved Voyager?", I don't think that my presenting a reasoned (though admittedly intense) argument on what I think would have improved VOY really ought to be considered an attack.

    Of course, maintaining your ideals is a whole lot more impressive if you're in situations where they're challenged. To suggest a few examples: we believe in not interfering with the cultural development of a aociety, but what happens when we see a society that, say, enslaves women or children? It would take a hard heart indeed to not be even slightly tempted to interfere, especially if one actually sees these abuses taking place. We believe that it's wrong to trade technology to people who aren't ready for it, but what do we do if that's the only thing they want in exchange for a food or mineral we need for survival? Are we at least tempted? Even when Sam Wildman comes to the bridge and says Naomi is hungry?

    When Janeway was excoriating Ransom and the Equinox about how one doesn't abandon Starfleet ideals under trial, wouldn't her words have been much more meaningful if she had faced similar trials and not succumbed to temptation? But she hadn't, and so she came off as being more than a little self-righteous -- and possibly with shades of recoiling from the notion that, there but for the grace of damned good luck might be her?

    As I said upthread, I'm not advocating dystopianism or abandonment of Trek ideals. What I would have like to see was those ideals being tested and surviving. That's what would prove they're strong -- not the assumption that they're never to be questioned.

    Unless you have some stats to back that up, that's an assertion and an opinion. I could -- and do -- as easily say that never questioning your ideals, moral views, and values implies a lack of thought and imagination. And again, a lack of situations in which your ideals are challenged. If I say I'm opposed to theft, but then am tempted to steal when I have no money and my child is hungry, that doesn't mean my morals aren't strong -- it means I have two values coming into conflict. But if, despite being tempted, I don't steal but struggle hard to find another solution, then that's the proof that I really don't believe in theft. Not in never facing temptation, but in surmounting it.

    The only reason I cited Sisko's actions at all is because he was being cited as an authority on the moral values of Federation citizens and ex-citizens. Surely his opinion on the subject may be called into question if he doesn't consistently practice those same values himself?


    Actually, most of my comments on DS9 were responses to DS9 references upthread. As for the quotation, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" (I'm not sure who said it -- Cal Hudson, maybe?), it simply seemed appropriate.

    Some differences I cited had nothing to do with the war storyline. Sisko always had less complete control of the station than another captain might have had over a ship -- he had civilian authorities to deal with, he had ships and traders coming and going who didn't feel obligated to do as he said, he had foreign (including non-Feddie) nationals on board. He had Cardassian technologies and traps, and the ever-looming presence of Gul Dukat. DS9 always dealt more with religion than any other Trek. In the very first episode Sisko figured in a religious prophecy, and that colored his dealings with many other characters throughout the series. Can you picture something like that happening on another Trek series, as anything more than a one-episode wonder?

    Who's asking them to?

    Actually, I do too. But I would have liked to see those ideals survive the kinds of situations that would have made adhering to them difficult. And that never happened.

    I stand by my assertion: Voyager's crew were, for the most part, presented as being "saints in paradise." How is it an attack, that I thought they could be more?
     
  6. Angel4576

    Angel4576 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^ Rumour has it that Behr, Moore et al knocked up their scripts by way of stone tablets though...... :p

    Seriously, I've never thought that there's been too much in it between TOS, TNG and DS9. Personally, Voyager was where everything started going wrong with the franchise IMO. whether it be due to the confines of network television, poor writing, or a largely substandard cast I'm not sure, possibly a combination of those elements.

    Speaking as a Niner, I'm just happy that Berman, Braga, Taylor etc were so wrapped up in Voyager so as to leave DS9 alone. It worked out quite well for us ;)

    Re Roddenberry, it's a shame that some see it that way. I love TOS, and TNG's not far behind. DS9 is different, which sets it apart from any of the other modern Treks.
     
  7. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because Behr hates Trek.
     
  8. misskim86

    misskim86 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ok I guess I gotta admit myself as a 'niner' ?

    And ok sure DS9 had its faults, when I convert new people to trekism I always say "stick thru the first two seasons because from season 3 ds9 becomes one of the best tv-shows period"

    But the thing is.. looking at DS9 as a whole.. the show is just simply so good, that you simply don't mind the faults the show has, in fact when the few really bad episodes come (like the risa episode) it's more like a fun comedic break from the seriousness and quality of the rest of the show.

    Now I got the Borg cube for xmas and I'm at season 5 and every episode almost ends in a big groan from me, nothing happened really and the show could might aswell have been "Star Trek: Enterprise C"

    So yeah DS9 might have its share of faults but making a thread about the faults of DS9 is laughable, especially compared to Voyager which even Voyager fans admit to being an aborted tv-idea
     
  9. Angel4576

    Angel4576 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm willing to give him some latitude on that one, given the end results, I don't necessarily think that that worked against him, or the series ;)
     
  10. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I agree.

    Best thing going for DS9 was no Prime Directive.
     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just to clarify, Berman was just as involved with DS9 as he has been with every other Trek show he's a Producer on. I wish people would stop immediately blaming him for everything when it's so much complex than that.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Don't be silly. It's like telling people that they must stop smoking NOW because it causes cancer. Berman's greatness and failings are self evident, but he is an awesome scapegoat.
     
  13. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In other words- To quote the EMH: "I like complaining, I find it comforting."


    Anwar , haven't you learned yet that misery loves company? :vulcan: ;)
     
  14. Ezri

    Ezri Captain Captain

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    What shall we do with these children that keep on posting
     
  15. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Shoot them?

    It's the Cardassian way. :lol:
     
  16. Angel4576

    Angel4576 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Isn't that like Gul Dukat bemoaning what should be done about those pesky Cardassians?
     
  17. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

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    A DS9 vs VOY discussion needs to go into General Trek. Start a thread there if you want to continue that tangent of discussion. This thread is about what would have improved Voyager.



    One thing would have greatly improved VOY, get it off UPN. Of course without UPN there would not have been a VOY. Without VOY there wouldn't be a forum, and we all would not be here discussing the awesomeness that was VOY.


    Since I don't really have a valid argument to present...
    VOYAGER RULEZZZZZZ!!!!!!! DS9 SUXXXXX!!!!!!!
    but I like DS9 too so...
    DS9 RULEZZZZZZ!!! VOYAGER SUXXXXXXX!!!
    (MY God, I like both shows. HOW CAN THAT BE?! Something must have fluxed the time space continuum.)
     
  18. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^^I think someone needs a stiff drink. :lol:

    What do you say dude, I'm buyin'.
     
  19. Angel4576

    Angel4576 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^ Methinks.....

    .....that someone's been at the Romulan ale already! :lol:
     
  20. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Bro., I'm sayin'!!!!! :guffaw:
     
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