Discussion in 'Voyager' started by arwag, Dec 24, 2007.
^^^^Dude, I am sooo not liking you today!
^^ Ironically, the one day I defend something to do with Voyager!
Well, I consider this a lesson learned. I'll be sure not to do it again!
You know I'm just bustin' your chops.
I feel my work here is done......for now!
Then why immediately do ENT having learned nothing from VOY? Did they think that the suits would act any differently? Had B&B said "Look. We have a great idea for Series Five, but we want to take at least a year to develop it and refine it and make sure it carries on the grand tradition of Star Trek," Maybe I'd give them some slack. But they took the money and put their flimsy prequel on the fast track to being made and the lies started leaking out: "Of course T'Pol isn't wearing a catsuit". "We know whats going on with the Temporal cold War".
There's enough blame to go around, but don't start playing Trekkie revisionist history and try to exonerate (at least partially) the BooBs.
Because Paramount/UPN would have just replaced them and forged ahead with getting another series out.
The very same ultimatum was made with VOY when Berman, Piller and Taylor felt it was too soon to rush out another series but they gave in because they felt they would be better in overseeing it than a new group of producers.
re: T'Pol's outfit
IMO isn't a catsuit and if it is who cares.
And I can't take people seriously when they make up juvenile nicknames such as MooreRon or BooBs etc.
B&B did fight for the series by the way. The suits were very resistant to a prequel. Secondly, the duo did work on the series for a good two years starting in VOY's fifth season.
If you read any of Berman's interviews, he says over & over how he wanted to wait a few years before putting the next Trek series on the air(which became ENT.) He knew the ratings were failing on Trek, he knew the fan base was leaving but Paramount/UPN refused to listen. All they wanted was to turn Trek into a marketing franshese and they couldn't do it without having a show on the air. Why else would they push forward with a movie so soon after the failing so recently with ENT.?
^^^^It still doesn't answer my question of why should Berman and Braga been a part of it if it was that bad? Granted, they would have been out of the money making machine that was Star Trek, but it might have made them look good by the fans and presented them oppurtunities elsewhere to tell stories that otherwise would have been hindered by Trek. They didn't have to be at Trek. They couijld have easily let some other schlubs take the fall while they fade into obscurity or move on to other projects. They only thing they have to in life is die. Period.
They were under contract at Paramount. Legally, they couldn't back out without incurring huge penalties.
[Nuremburg]"I was only following orders,"[/Nuremburg]
It was their job.
If everybody walked away from a job just because they didn't like what the boss told them to do, then nobody in the world would ever work. If other such positions were so readily available for them to leave and do other work, I'm sure they would have. Jobs like actor or producer aren't sitting around in the industry ripe like apples waiting to be picked. There are thousands of young people graduating everyday that studied to be actors, writers & producers waiting and looking for jobs(I was one of them). There are thousands of veterans in the industry looking for work competing with these up and comers, all fighting for the same jobs.
I'm sorry but who gives a shit what the fans want, we aren't signing their pay check. B&B don't work for us, they worked for Paramount.
Alright, folks, DS9 is a scroll up, ENT is a scroll down, and discussion for the 11th movie has its own forum, too.
And if ya really want to compare Berman & Braga to the Nazis and ENT to the Holocaust, maybe ya should place both hands firmly against the desk, push yourself away from the computer & go get some fresh air.
Learning Curve was an ironical use of force. he was literally saying force is stupid by using force stupidly. And it worked since Dalby decided to give up on the Maquis ways in favour of trying to enbiggen himself.
Year of hell. He sided with Annorax because he believed in the goodness of Annorax and thought they could use the weapon to create a non violent solution to extricate Voyager from the year of Hell. None of that could have happened with out Chakotay's faith in the goodness of others. It was Tom who mutinied against Chuckles organizing a violent insurrection and blew the bugger up. Well, kicked it into normal space.
Fury I haven't seen this one a lot like most of the early shows. But are you talking about Chakotay from day 60ish? When the death of his crew was still fresh in his mind? Exagerated youth.
Maneuverers? Imagine a guy getting uppity about fracking with the rapist who fracked him? And still even then, after destroying the transporter technology on a rogue solo mission... he surrenders and accepts Kazon law for punishment since he wasn't going to take his suicide mission to any ridiculous conclusion too quickly. Janeway would have chalked her shuttle up to ramming speed and bounced the sucker off the Kazon City Ships shields.
Unimatrix Zero. Um? His captain asked him to create a battle plan? Again haven't seen in a while.
Distant origin Unless Chakotay was "tricking" those Voth into walking across a religious nut job mine field for giggles... But he was right there arguing for "truth" using reason and speechifying.
I'm just not seeing it bud.
^^Well, I guess that would bring us back to the question: If Chakotay was a peaceful man, how could there be conflict between the Starfleet & Maquis crew? :thumbsup:
Not that you personally were arguing it but I think it might put things in perspective.
Picard laid it out. There are historical issues to telling native Americans where they are and are not allowed to live.
Of course after he made a moral stand, which resulted in his friends being tortured or murdered? Well the stakes and means for the cause kind of took care of itself.
You're saying that anyone should just give up their entire career just over some disputes with the higher-up managements?
If they left they'd violate their contracts, get the pants sued off them, and due to this legal action be prevented from further work. Meanwhile Paramount just hires new dudes who'll keep in line more and make a small profit from the money they got due to B&B's contract violations.
Moore wasn't in their position, he could leave without threat of legal action.
^^ Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show. He didn't need to leave or violate his contract with them, and as such gained more kudos from B5 fandom for not allowing the direction of the show be dictated by network suits. It also hasn't prevented him from finding more work in both the television and comicbook fields.
Why couldn't Berman/Braga do the same? They didn't need to leave, just refuse to be dictated to and then force them to either replace you, or cancel the show. Either way, you're free from your contract without the threat of legal action.
And let's face it, worst case scenario, they're blackballed by UPN. Whoopy fcuking doo......That would be a real career killer.....Not.
Moore left, and after having a creative hand in Roswell and Carnivale, runs nuBSG. Echevarria and Behr left and came up with The 4400. Piller left and gave us The Dead Zone. There's life after Star Trek and the above have been able to carve their niche. Perhaps Berman/Braga realised that they simply weren't as creative as them and therefore couldn't cut the apron strings to free themselves from Star Trek. Lord knows, if Threshold is anything to go by, that's a fairly safe bet....
B&B were under no threat of legal action if they chose not to develop the fifth series that became ENT. Many producers have come and again and are replaced. So yes B&B could have turned down working on series five. UPN/Paramount were ready to replace Berman/Piller/Taylor when they at first didn't seem interested in creating another series following TNG's end on tv and DS9 just starting.
They didn't want to because Brannon said he was rejuvenated by the fifth series as he worked on developing it and both said they felt an obligation to carry on the Trek vision to the best of their abilities. It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.
I actually enjoyed Threshold.
I think cancellation unequivocally answered that one.
Less control. They quit, UPN just hires guys to replace them who are equally if not more subservient to UPN's wishes, show likely declines in quality. Nothing is gained, and they're out of a job.
They did the best they could, under the circumstances. It's no exaggeration to say that the things I loved about VOY were their doing.
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