What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by The Overlord, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know I'm necroposting, but...boy, do I disagree. This is exactly the kind of policy that France and the other allies (minus the Americans) inflicted on Germany after 1918.

    Kind of backfired, as stripping a proud nation of its territories and technology made the ascent of people like Hitler possible in the first place.

    Do this to the Cardies, and it will end up biting you in the arse, even if it is a few decades later.
     
  2. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    If you are talking about the treaty of Versailles, Whilst terriotiral issues did play a part in the events leading upto WWII it was more the reperations which crrippled the Germany economy that was one of the bigger influences on the events leading upto WWII. And it was actually a Brit, John Maynad Keyes that convinced many of British and American leaders at the time that they were reperations were overly harsh. The French leaders were left largely unmoved.
     
  3. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was mostly the French, yes, you're right about that...but as far as I got T´Girl's post, she was suggesting reparations of the sort, such as mostly dismantling the Cardassians' fleet, taking their colonies, dividing the Union into zones, controlled by different powers. What I was suggesting is that this would create a lot of resentment amongst the Cardassians toward the victors, much as the Versailles treaty did amongst the Germans.

    ...which would, after a while, probably cause the opposite of the desired effect, namely pacifying the Cardies. It would make them hate everyone else even more than they did before the war.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One might argue that Cardassia never was a first-rate military power and thus could safely be made angry - it could never rebound to any level of military significance no matter how much hatred was behind the effort.

    Then again, the one thing Cardassia appeared to do very well before the war, and was suspected and feared of doing, was clandestine arming. And now they would have learned a trick or two from the amazingly self-sufficient Dominion forces... So the quarantine and deprivation measures would have to be really extreme to truly prevent the Union from re-establishing a military industry and eventually a fighting force.

    Not to say this couldn't be done anyway. But it sounds like something the UFP wouldn't do.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Well if what happened to the Cardassians was closer to after WWII than WWI. It might turn out reasonable.
     
  6. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, but their sense of patriotism was not destroyed and trampled into the ground by a horrible ideology that led them to destruction, such as was the case with Germany after WWII. They were morally finished as well as physically.

    Not so the Cardassians. They turned on the Dominion out of pride and patriotism (which was a good thing), and most likely their morale was more like Germany's after WWI. Meaning that I sustain my opinion....breaking them down like that would only result in future conflict, fuelled by hatred and resentment rather than economic motives.

    Sure you can't compare the Cardassians with pre-WWII Germany; the latter were more of a threat to everyone - although with the Dominion factored in, the Cardies were actually threatening to win the war, weren't they? They mostly didn't due to the awesome powers of deus ex machina.

    But military might (or lack thereof) aside...no-one had any use for further war, even ten or twenty years in the future.

    Helping them back on their feet, as the Americans have helped Germany after WWII, that's the way to pacify Cardassia...and it seems to me that's the Federation way, anyway. Stripping them of their dignity as well as their resources would backfire eventually, as the Cardassians aren't like to forget such a grievous insult...and if anything, they are resilient. They'd get there eventually.
     
  7. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    Weren't the germans also obligated to pay a lot money for the damage they did trought the war?
     
  8. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    WWI. After WWII, everyone kind of paid each other for the mutual damage. For example the British government helped Germany rebuild the Frauenkirche (a cathedral) in Dresden...they had bombed the church to the ground along with the entire city, during the final months of the war, when Germany wasn't even in the state to throw rocks at the attackers.

    The Americans put in a lot of money, as well, and helped the people on the Soviet side of Berlin not to starve to death, the first few years after 1945.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...FWIW, my native Finland was the only losing nation to actually pay its WWII reparations. Rather than being a cause for resentment and anger, it's just about the only thing we remember the victors fondly for: the national myth tells that by producing stuff for the USSR, we not only re-established but actually for the first time established an industrial base that subsequently gave us true international competitiveness. (It's mostly bollocks, of course, but it sounds good.)

    Cardassia might remain a proud nation even when deprived of colonial holdings, as long as they have things to remain proud of. And they have an excellent and experienced propaganda machine to create such things, out of whole cloth if need be... (Or out of tatters, as it rather may be.)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Often, in star trek, one encounters the idea that a defeated culture can rebound stronger than ever before and take its revenge - that this is quite likely.
    That's largely fantasy.

    In actual history, this only happened when the victors (by peace treaty or similar means, not complete victory/occupation) were foolish enough to let a developed country all but unsupervised - for a rather long period of time.
    What happened FAR more often is the defeated cultures either disappeared or were culturally assimilated by the conqueror (Roman Empire, South America, etc, etc). The hardiest cultures only managed to survive during the millenia, until TPTB took pity on them and let them have countries/etc again.
    Defeated people only rise again if the victors (or their successors) LET it happen - either intentionally or due to negligence on their part.

    In the trekverse, the romulan or klingon occupation policies are MORE than enough to ensure that the cardassians never rise again as a great power - and their resentment forever remains impotent, without teeth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  11. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    Aren't the Romualns right now in the midlde of political turmoil? Klingon cilvil war could happen anyttime with all those noble houses and vendettas. Let's not forget the klingon fleet takes a huge blow from Nero.
     
  12. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Such mishaps are not nearly enough to upset the utter domination of klingon/romulan occupation forces against mere terrorists; a phenomenon the romans (for example) - like most empires - also dealt with.
    History - real world history - shows empires don't fall - aren't even moderately inconvenienced - due to terrorists.

    You need a military, a large, well equipped army for such momentary weakening of the klingons/romulans to be exploitable.

    As said - the notion that defeated people can overthrow their vigilant conquerors is largely fantasy.
    The defeated can only hope and pray in historical happenstance - that his conqueror will be defeated by someone else, more kindly disposed toward him.

    If the klingons/romulans want to keep the cardassians as as subjugated people, they can do so relatively easily. It's as simple as that.
     
  13. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    They could give a reason for those empires to pull out.
    They have the experience and the minds to set up a regular army and they pobably have a relativly intact infrastructure on the part occupyed by the Feds who might let them have their own state after a while.

    How many colonies did Britain had in 1912 and how many does it have now?
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Really?
    When did they, outside fiction?

    Only when TPTB WANTED to retreat - not due to terrorism, but due to other factors.
    They can have all the experience and minds they want.
    An army, they can't have - not with a klingon/romulan force supervising the cardassian territory resources/said minds/periodically squashing any cardassian guerillas, etc, etc.

    And what was the reason for Britain's departure?
    You actually think indigenous terrorism did it? As opposed to events WAY above such level?

    I already told you:
    "The defeated can only hope and pray in historical happenstance - that his conqueror will be defeated by someone else, more kindly disposed toward him."

    It's nice to believe that no one is truly defeated, that there are always second chances, etc. But such feel-good ideas are always proved false by a mere history book.

    In effect, you wish to devolve star trek to the level of a children's tale, in order to feel fuzzy and warm inside.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The key factor there would appear to be whether the defeated country was annexed or not.

    In (European) history, annexation of defeated enemies has gone in and out of fashion - and in the 20th century was very much out of fashion, it being quite unthinkable for France to annex Germany, say. Even minor border provinces or distant colonial holdings were rather declared "mandates" or "neutral zones" or "joint control regions" or whatnot. This meant that industries and national feelings indeed could rebound even after a decisive defeat in the battlefield.

    Nothing of the sort was possible e.g. for Poland on all those occasions where the country or nation itself ceased to be in terms of geography. Foreign, split rule and the existence of internal borders would quite physically prevent industrial recovery or the assembling of unifying political parties or movements.

    The Cardassian Union would be hacked to pieces by the very fact that its defeat apparently consisted of the gradual conquest of its outer holdings in a great inward push (and never mind that the decisive strike was one of the Washington vs. Richmond sort, a short hop made possible by shifts in the overall balance of power rather than in locally relevant military factors). On the other hand, Cardassia itself might well remain undivided and the vast majority of Cardassian people untouched by occupation or other rule by the victors. Their traumatizing or depowering experiences would come from their wartime alliance gone sour, which might in fact be conductive of national pride.

    As for the other POV, that of the victors... Klingons probably wouldn't be all that hot about weakening their enemy beyond a certain point. They prefer strong opponents, especially when those have been decisively defeated (compare to the idolization of Rommel or Napoleon in the British tradition). From which it follows that Romulans would love to give Klingons exactly what they want! And the UFP would want to see Cardassia rise again for humanitarian reasons. With such agendas at play, it is far from implausible that everybody would get way more than they bargained for.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Tying cardassia's fate on whether it was carved up/occupied by the victors or not is credible.

    But, as regards the klingons and romulans:
    Both klingons and romulans have empires. They use conquered territory for resources, and, when the native population is 'ready', for manpower.
    The klingon/romulan conquered cardassian territory would be just that - conquered, under the conqueror's boot. No glorious freedom fighter defeating Godzilla with a paper cutter.

    The notion that klingons would want to keep cardassians strong for, essentially, sport, would come at the cost of making the klingons a copy-cat of a really stupid bond villain.
    The idolization of Rommel or Napoleon had no relevance on keeping Germany or France strong; if this happened, it was for completely different reasons (that actually made sense, pragmatically).

    The romulans wanting to resurrect an enemy - their enemy - just so they can annoy the klingons, would come at the same price of making the romulans idiotic cardboard characters.

    One would rightly wonder how did the klingons or romulans ever managed to create an empire with such thinking.

    The federation could try to make their portion of cardassian territory 'free' for humanitarian reasons.
    And, in the process, incur heavy protests from the klingons and romulans - who would be opposed to the existence of so relatively strong a cardassian state.
    Potential for conflict abounds.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed, in both cases it took place after strength had been denied the respective foes. But like you yourself emphasize, it's not the defeated that gets to decide whether to rebound or not, it's the victor and all those little quirks of his that have little or nothing directly to do with the struggle at hand. Klingon mindset does seem to call for playing up the strength of the foe, as the heart of fighting lies in the ability to tell stories about it. At the time of TNG, actual physical spoils of war seem to play little role for the Empire: it's not as if they would really need a Cardassian mining world or prize fleet for anything much.

    Indeed, in "Way of the Warrior", it seems Gowron goes to war with the principal goals of a) looking good and b) getting as many Klingons as possible killed - at least from the ranks of his domestic opponents. That he later digs in does not appear to reflect any physical demands of the empire: what Klingons do with their newly annexed territory seems to be random terrorizing of Cardassia, as in "Return to Grace" and "Rules of Engagement", rather than exploiting of resources already gained.

    How so? That's straight from the real world: whenever the big wars in Europe seemed to be leading to a decisive victory, somebody on the winning side would decide to disrupt the process in order to restore the balance and deny his allies the potential boost to their hegemony intentions.

    Remember that while Klingons had border quarrels with Cardassia (at Betreka), Romulans supposedly had none. Annexation of Cardassian worlds would in all likelihood give the Romulans isolated bubbles of territory outside the main body of the Star Empire - a terrifying prospect for a people who have been huddling inside a Neutral Zone for more than a generation (which for Vulcanoids is pretty damn long!).

    Certainly so. And since the actual sides in the conflict would be the strong victors, the rise of Cardassia would be largely irrelevant in the threat sense - it would be merely a means for the true players in achieving their goals in this conflict.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Timo

    The americans wanted to keep Germany strong as part of their plan to stop communism spreading.
    The monarchies installed an ally in France as part of ensuring monarchy will remain stable in Europe and its colonies. This was no idle talk - they put behind it the muscle to hold it for a century.
    Napoleon/Rommel worship had nothing to do with this. Nada. Zilch. Nor 'for sport' or 'just to annoy x or y'.

    During/after the big wars in Europe, the victors had pragmatic reasons for keeping a defeated foe strong.
    And none of these even approached the cardboard idiocy of 'for sport' or 'just to annoy someone'.


    Gowron's bravado in 'way of the warrior' was facade - or rather, an instrument to awaken nationalistic feeling, often used by human dictators, as well; Gowron wanted to use the tried and tested conquest (to return to the old ways) for amassing new strength (in resources, political from the houses enriched with the new gains, etc).
    After the conquest, klingon convoys - civilian/commercial - were travelling throughout cardassian occupied space.
    And the klingons were quite into keeping the cardassians in line and into keeping federation influence out of the zone (arguably, even more zealous than necessary) - the opposite of making the conquered cardassians strong, 'for sport'.

    You could, of course, maintain your interpretation - the price (besides an overcomplicated explanation to fit it with canon facts), as said, is to make the klingons cardboard fools, and to make the building of the klingon empire a gigantic miracle.


    As for the romulans - they just had a war with cardassians; and now occupy cardassian territory.
    And they're really paranoid; they are supposed to underestimate, as opposed to overestimate the danger from racist, 'manifest destiny' cardassians?

    Not that you need to be paranoid in order to see the necessity of keeping the conquered - by you - cardassians in line.
    You need to be a cardboard idiot not to see it, as an empire.

    Cardassian territory/etc IS the 'true goals'.
    Spoils of war.
    Keeping it under control will NOT be ignored. As already said, the opposite is likely; the winners will quarrel to keep it under TIGHTER control.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  19. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    Edit posted:
    The Russians from Afghanistan to give you a recent example.

    They can build one up, theamericans were in a similar situation with veterans of the french wars and indian wars providing expertise to their army.

    There is nothing feel good about the afghans and their backward ways but they did beat plenty of occupiers

    Multiple wars, rebellions and peace movements had been a large contributing factor.
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The afgans - they did not lead to the retreat of the URSS. After all the guerilla war - heavily helped by american weaponry - the URSS was still there, still dominant.
    The URSS retreated because it was in meldown due to internal reasons. Afgans - minor factor, at best.

    The British - much like all europeans - retreated because of the zeitgeist, helped by the fact that maintaining a colonial empire was no longer profitable enough to be worth the trouble - due to economic, commercial reasons. And they were exhausted by WW2. Rebellions, etc - minor factors, at best.

    America was never conquered territory, treated as such.
    Except for the indians. I'm still waiting for their glorious liberation.