What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by The Overlord, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Cardassians would be stripped of the majority of their territory. Certainly any "colonies" with indigenous populations would be evacuated of the resident Cardassians, and should the natives be primitive, Cardassian technology and structures would be removed. Any star systems/planets in previously disputed areas would be transferred to non-Cardassian parties. Chakotay's people would finally get their planet back, others too. There would be legitimate need for the Cardassians to retain small patrol starships, but their medium and heavy warships would be confiscated. Colonies established on uninhabited world might remain the territory of the Cardassians.

    Picard (from Journey's End): "... the last war caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives. Don't send our two peoples back down that same path again."

    While you could claim that was very one sided, that the vast majority of deaths were Cardassians, and Starfleet was just hosing down civilian populations with phaser fire from orbit, it sounds more like the Cardassians had a large military that could dish it up, as well as take it.

    In The Wounded, nearly a year after the end of the war, Vice Admiral Haden said "... Federation is not prepared for a new sustained conflict."

    Maxwell destroyed one supply depot, one supply ship and a single warship.

    :)
     
  2. Ian Keldon

    Ian Keldon Fleet Captain

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    ^And the warship fell with just one or two shots, which is the point.
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Destroying a single Cardassian warship of unknown size, during combat, isn't "cutting through the Union like a hot knife through butter."

    Which was the point.

    :)


     
  4. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But Germany, for a small country, came pretty close to dominating Europe. If you can believe Spock, the world too.

    I don't know how accurate Spock's statement was, though.

    Cardassia could be seen in a similar way, except they were way too far behind in their current state to be a serious match for the Federation.

    They were smaller, ships technologically behind the Feds (or some of their ships), and


    But they did have the scientific, military, industrial and logistical base to be become a major power if they were bigger and had more resources to feed it.

    I dunno, the fact that he was directing the war, and winning it, during the first stages suggests he was pretty tactically sound-he caught on to Sisko's plan even when Weyoun, who seemed to be the senior adviser or something, couldn't see it.

    I tend to agree, except if they were bigger in size, and had more resources, they could possibly achieve it on their own.

    Their near evil philosophy on certain things is their biggest weakness though.
     
  5. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    The moment Nazi Germany invaded Russia, it had lost.
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Abe Lincoln said it best, "One war at a time." When faced with the possibility of war with the Confederacy and Britain simotaniously during the Trent affair.
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Really the Cardassians were a tragic race more than an evil one. You can almost symathize with where they were and how they got there. A culturally enlightened people who were starving and dying from disease. The military takes over and starts several aggressive wars to aquire more resources. Now you have people chaffing under military rule, dying from constant wars, battles and occupations. They finally manage to overthrow their military oppressors to found a democratic government and what happens? The Klingons declare they have to be changelings and invade. This reduces them to a 3rd rate power and puts them worse off than they were before, to the point they're having to rely on their former enemies, the Federation for help. You can almost see why Dukat did what he did in alligning Cardassia with the Dominion.

    But really your arguement that "if they had more technology and resources they would be powerful" doesn't exactly mean much. Of course they would... what does that have to do with anything? If you gave Italy atomic weapons at the beginning of world war 2, they would have conquered the world with or without Germany.. while true that doesn't say anything about Italy as it was itself.

    They were what they were, the militaristic bad guys that were quite obviously behind in technology. Their doctorine seemed to operate on quantity more than quality as you almost never see Cardassian ships operating alone. This is why they also had a first rate Intelligence service... that's low maintence compared to a massive military and often can achieve the same results.
     
  8. funkylovemonkey

    funkylovemonkey Ensign Newbie

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    I've always had a bit of a problem with the single civilization powers like the Klingons, Romulans or the Cardassians seriously challenging the Federation which consists of more then 200 civilizations. But that's really an argument for another time. Clearly the Cardassians were dangerous but not overwhelming power politically or militarily. After all the Klingons did completely overwhelm their defenses fairly quickly. There is also the Cardassian war, first mentioned in TNG in "The Wounded." Interestingly though out of all the regulars on TNG, DS9 or Voyager, only Picard and O'brien seemed to have any direct experience in that war, which makes you wonder how widespread that war actually was.

    There are hints at some sort of economic/ecological disaster that happened on Cardassia in the last several hundred years. Picard mentions in "Chain of Command" that Cardassia was once a prosperous civilization known for it's art and architecture before having some sort of catastrophe that allowed the military to form a dictatorship. I'm curious at why Cardassia would continue to struggle even into the late 24th century before the Cardassian war since it seems that the main resource in the 24th century is Energy. After all if you can transform silicon into gold or anything else you might need, the question of resources becomes very broad. And yet it seems clear that the Cardassian motivation for invading Bajor was economic. After all, Empok Nor/DS9 was designed primarily it seems to be a massive ore processing plant, but unfortunately it's never clear what ore (perhaps dilitium?) they were extracting. So I guess we have to take on screen evidence to mean that the Cardassians were lacking something. It also could come down to centuries of mismanagement by the Cardassian military dictatorship, even an enforced mismanagement to justify their continued control. After all if Cardassia is prosperous and the people have more economic freedom, they might start wanting other freedom as well.

    Which leads me to think that Cardassia would probably still have the same struggles it did before, the pressures that led it to anex neighbors and strip mine them. Which means they will have to have some pretty dramatic changes to prosper. Japan after World War 2 might be a good model here. Japan is comparatively resource poor with a highly skilled population, which led it to start invading its neighbors during the 1930s for more resources and putting into a crash course with the U.S. After World War 2 Japan recovered at least in part by using its highly skilled population to manufacture while relying on other countries for raw materials. That kind of system demands the easy flow of resources back and forth between countries. That could easily come if Cardassia opened its borders (which previous to the Dominion War were highly armed and impermeable) and allowed free trade back and forth between them and the Federation.

    As far as Elim Garak, I never pictured him as much of a leader. However I can imagine him as some sort of power broker working behind the scenes, kind of like a Shadow Shogun.

    And while the Romulans and Klingons may be tempted to divide up Cardassia after the war, it seems like it would be a pretty difficult prospect considering the distance between those powers. While there are no official maps in Star Trek (beyond the vague ones that appear on various displays), most that I've seen including Star Trek Star Charts published by Geoffrey Mandel who worked on Enterprise and are probably the most comprehensive we have place Romulans and Klingons pretty firmly in the Beta quadrant separated from Cardassia and Bajor by a pretty big expanse of the Federation. Even if they wanted to, I doubt they would have the resources and will to maintain territory that far from their home space, especially if the only practical way through would be through Federation Space.

    I would like to see where the Cardassians go. When they were first introduced they were one of my least favorite alien races on Star Trek, but over their time on DS9 I grew to really appreciate and love them. Some of my favorite secondary characters in Star Trek are among them like Garak, Dukat and Damar. I think they are among the most tragic civilizations that have been in Star Trek, ironically fighting for that spot with the civilization they ended up terrorizing, the Bajorans. But at least Bajor had something of a happy ending; Cardassia had centuries of poverty, war and sadness ending in the almost total destruction of their homeworld and the loss of over a trillion people.
     
  9. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Of course, it seems that it goes without saying that if any power had much more weapons, or a super weapon they would win. Then again, it depends on whose hands they're in.

    Germany had the jet planes and the missiles first, and still lost the war.

    The ancient Persians had a much larger army and was well equipped and still couldn't defeat the Greeks.

    On the other side of the coin, when the Greeks obtained more power, they conquered Persia--power and resources in the right hands.

    Not that the Cardassians were going to beat the Federation, they were too far behind. But plug in some more power and resources to their military and intelligence base, the story might change.

    I think this is why Dukat often referred to the Cardassians as the potentials leaders of the Alpha Quadrant-they probably thought the same thing.

    'If we had just a little more resources and technology, we would dominate everybody else.'


    I do to some extent, because you can see the individuals in their society, but the atrocities their government committed against the Bajorans and God knows who else, is the deal breaker.

    Their intelligence service is another asset that made them dangerous. (to themselves as well as to other powers.)

    At times it was hard to know whether Trek considered them a first power threat, or just a minor power that was dangerous to weaker neighbors.

    They were either portrayed as dangerous threat, or weaker power with weaker technology. What made them different than the Klingons or Romulans?
     
  10. Knight Templar

    Knight Templar Commodore

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    I think of the Cardassians during the war as being not unlike Italy to the Axis during World War Two.

    While the Italians made a pretense of being tough guys, when the war really got going the Germans had to bail them out.

    by the way, it reminds me of Winston Churchills comment about Italy when he learned they were fighting on the German side in WWII.

    "It's only fair. We had them last time." (World War One).
     
  11. LS31

    LS31 Ensign Newbie

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    I always assummed that the the Federation/Romulans/Klingons would occupy Cardassia Prime and their other territory. Some sort of provisional government would be formed from Damar's resistance movement. Eventually that government would take control from the Federation/Romulan/Klingon occupation.

    I guess the primary issue would be if the Federation and Romulans resume their hostilities post-war and refuse to relinquish territory they are occupying.
     
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well that's about the most shallow and insulting way to make a point by making a blanket statement against an entire group of people.

    To say nothing of the fact it demonstrates your lack of any in depth knowledge of world war II. Italy had a lot of problems, but combrat prowress wasn't one of them. If you had ever read any reports of the campaigns in North Africa you'd know that.

    They were lacking in industry and heavy equipment to be certain. Their main problem was they had to project naval and air power over a British dominated Mediterranian, and with so much of their industry keeping them in the game there, thinks like heavy artillery and tanks are secondary.

    Before you mention Greece, let me just point out that the campaign in Greece was a testimony both to Mussolini's lack of strategic insight and preparation and the ferocity of the Greek defenders than the Italian people or nation you so openly insulted.

    There are parallels to be certain, but maybe you should watch a bit more Trek outside the Dominion war arc and learn about it's themes of tolerance and understanding.
     
  13. GulGoneCrazy

    GulGoneCrazy Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I see the future of Cardassia in this way.
    Their territory will be occupied for some time by Romulans and Federation.The Klingons will stay for much longer time in thier occupy zones.

    The Federation is likely going to send help to Cardassians in medical and food supplies and try to prevent any conflicts between Romulans,Klingons and Cardassians.The federation promotes peace and cooperation so they will assist Cardassians in making new democratic government.It is very likely that Federation will not allow Cardassians to rebuild their military leaving them just enough Galors and Hideki vessels to defend their territory from pirate raids.There also may be a constant trade route between Cardassians and Feds.

    The Romulans will probably leave their part of Cardassian space back to them since Romulan empire is very far from Cardassia and empire needs to be defended.As far i know Cardassian space is poor in resources so Romulans may not see any profit in holding it any longer.The relationship between Cardassians and Romulans will probably be neutral in future times after occupation.

    The Feds and Romulans may be gone very soon but Kingons wont.I think that they will stay much longer in zones they occupied to take any resources from it.Klingon empire is big and it needs resources to rebuild fleet witch is lost during Dominion war.When all possible resources are taken they will eventually leave territory back to Cardassians.

    The Cardassians will very likely form a democratic government under influence and example from Federation.After rebuilding Cardassia prime and other planets their industry and society will probably grow.When occupation ends, they may start building more advanced vessels and retake some territory from Breen.If all goes well Cardassians may become a fearsome power again in next 20 or 30 years.

    But if they decline cooperation and start plotting a revenge against Fed and Klingons they may put them selves into much worse situation.

    There is also an increasing threat from the borg.If borg attacks Cardassians in this current weak status that may be the end of Cardassian existence.Or if the borg attack hits Romulans,Klingons or Feds thats mean that occupation of Cardassia may end much sooner.

    Everything is possible but as a Cardassian fan i am hoping that Cardassian union has learned a lesson and that it will rebuild it self from ashes and become fearsome power again.
     
  14. NebulaClassGuy

    NebulaClassGuy Lieutenant Commander

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    As much as the Cardassians would loathe to recognize the reality of this, I tend to believe that Cardassia basically became a clone of post-occupation Bajor after the war, which to a Bajoran, would be poetic justice.

    The Cardassian government and military was in ruin, their cities had been devastated, the population would now be in poverty and starving, and vast quantities of cultural treasures were forever lost to the war. This means that like Bajor, Cardassia would need to swallow any shreds of pride it had left, and depend on the UFP and her allies to survive.

    And just like the Bajorans, I can totally see many Cardassians, the youth in particular, rushing to enlist in Starfleet, both as a way to simply get off of their ruined homeworld and escape a life in poverty and despair, and as a way to better themselves and build a tangible life for themselves and their families.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.

    Did the Dominion leave the Alpha Quadrant? Now that they had Odo and the cure, they would have no real reason to withdraw. And as far as we know, they never promised to do so anyway - the treaty witnessed at the end of "What You Leave Behind" was only about stopping the fighting. For all we know, there now exists a little corner of Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant, perhaps a star system or three, and angered Cardassians are free to join the mighty Dominion war machine there if they consider this will one day help liberate Cardassia from the occupation.

    ...It's not as if the Bajorans who joined Starfleet would have thought highly of that organization in absolute terms, either. (Sure, it hadn't exactly bombarded Bajor to tiny pieces, but whether that's a distinction worth noting is debatable.)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. naverhtrad

    naverhtrad Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't know about this. You would hope most right-thinking Cardassians would think twice before allying themselves with a polity that had been responsible for the systemic massacre of 800 million of their people. The Dominion occupation of Cardassia was brief, but far, far more brutal than (one assumes) the UFP/KE/RSE one.

    That said, the in STO the Cardassian True Way had joined the Dominion to commit acts of terrorism against the Federation, but STO is not canon, and we knew the True Way were a bunch of dicks anyway.
     
  17. GulGoneCrazy

    GulGoneCrazy Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Maybe there is possibility that Cardassians will split up into sections ?Those who want the dominion by theirs side and break the occupation and those who want new Cardassia cooperating with occupying forces that will hopefully leave one day..
     
  18. NebulaClassGuy

    NebulaClassGuy Lieutenant Commander

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    That is an utterly absurd statement, but if you want to think of the UFP as an enemy force to the Bajorans, go right ahead... I shan't stop you.
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Why should I want to think that?

    What I do think is that you should read the quoted text once more...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I actually question it in the opposite direction. It's natural the Bajorans would join Starfleet who helped them get back on their feet after what the Cardassians did to them.

    The Dominion were responsible for what happened to Cardassia and were the occupying force, the Federation helped them to get back on their feet, and were the enemy of the occupying force. Now maybe the Romulan and Klingon prescence and aid could be akin to an Occupation, but, I certainly wouldn't expect the Federation Prescence to be seen in that light.
     

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