What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Emperor Norton, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, Nazi Germany is a bad example, considering the Empire lasted such a short time, and the government itself became a bigger threat to the people than its enemies. Even Admiral Lleyton wouldn't have rounded people up on a racial basis and executed them (Other than Founders).

    I think a better example would have to go further back in history, like the Roman Empire. But Empires like that were only able to thrive as long as their country economically thrived, and you can't economically thrive if you're isolated. To your point about the Federation having no important allies, I wasn't referring to the Federation, I was referring to Earth. You think planets like Vulcan would remain in the Federation if Earth became a military dictatorship? The Federation would fracture and die within a generation, even if the AQ won the war against the Founders. The Earth would pretty much turn into post-USSR Russia.

    You can't control somebody through fear, and they will give you the minimum necessary not to get killed.
    You can control somebody through aligning their interests to yours, and they will give you as much as they can.

    Romulus and Cardassia control their people by fear, they end up in shambles. The Federation and Ferenginar control people through alignment of interests, and they come out of the war stronger than anyone else.
     
  2. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I've been thinking, and this has the chance to get rather sticky, so I'm going to drop the topic. Let me say I do agree that Nazi Germany had faults in stability, especially economically (the German miracle, as it was called, being based on expansionism, and Nazi Germany would have had a severe economic crisis had it survived the war). But it also did have stability based on a bureaucratic, centralized infrastructure (though there are criticisms to be had of that as well), employment and a happy populace (besides those it was racistly persecuting), and robbing Peter to pay Paul. In short, the Empire from Star Wars is cool. Enjoy the topic.
     
  3. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If Sisko either went along with the coup or Leyton was able to cover up the evidence Sisko had the Federation and Starfleet might have just gone with the flow. We've seen plenty of times when the military takes over and everyone at the time thinks its great and the military promises to have elections "soon".

    The longer it goes the more pressure for Leyton to return power of course. If he planned it right he could use his coup to get himself elected into the council and catapulted into the presidency.
     
  4. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
    I'm envisioning a storyline where Leyton took control with Sisko's help, increased warship production, and put the most ruthless and aggressive officers he could find in charge of the most powerful ships - and by the time the third mirror universe installment of DS9 comes around, it is the mirror universe versions of our heroes who are aghast at what they see HERE.
     
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But Leyton would only control Earth and the Sol System at most, unless he somehow got enough people to take control of entire armadas or something in other areas of the Federation.

    Maybe he was planning on taking the Council hostage and using them to force obedience from the rest of the Federation?
     
  6. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    He could be insidious. He was already being so; getting into power far enough, accumulating enough power, and then fully putting it into effect; not on an Earth scale, but within the Federation and Starfleet on the whole. That's how you get dictators who ostensibly say they're democratic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  7. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The ironic thing would be that, since there almost certainly would be a democratic splinter and rebellion, those people would parallel the Maquis, whom they had happily gone to war with when they had been part of the Federation establishment themselves. And now they'd be on the other side of that divide. And that is narratively very interesting.
     
  8. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Some thoughts:

    If Sisko were to have gone along with the coup, he would have essentially been Darth Vader (or at least Darth Vader as he should have been done), and I can see Sisko going that route. I'll cite this as an example. Imagine that as a national policy. He wouldn't necessarily be evil, but he would have convinced himself that whatever he was doing was necessary or justified. And the bad guy never thinks of himself as the bad guy, to paraphrase Ricardo Montalban. I do like what USS Triumphant said about the Mirror universe. This would be a reality of what could have easily happened, which would make the characters reflect on what they are, because they were capable of whatever they became in the alternate reality.

    On that note, though, Sisko could easily slowly get disillusioned with what has happened and what he allowed to happen, and become a turncoat for whatever rebellion or secessionist entities there are. I can easily see that as well.

    I've also been giving some thought to the Anti-Leytonists. I think there would be a Civil War. If the rebels fail, I think you'd have worlds that secede from the Federation, not necessarily as one power bloc but as any number of different units, the Federation working to retake those seceded worlds, and an ongoing rebellion, likewise of any number of different units. So a big hurrah, a la the Confederacy, followed by an ongoing struggle.
    I think the USS Enterprise would join a rebellion. If you want to throw in some extra darkness, it could be destroyed, maybe with survivors, maybe not. And you could have any number of "the good guys" from the franchise go rebel. Or they could stay loyal, for some interesting narrative darkness. I'm not sure about anything else.
    The interesting thing to me about any Anti-Leyton faction of a Civil War, or in a subsequent rebellion, is that they'd be the underdogs. The Federation would be supplied. The rebels would have only whatever they had when they rebelled, and whatever they could get thereafter, which is not going to come from a starbase. And depending on the era, you have about three stages of Star Trek that the series was transitioning through, with different designs and uniforms and technologies (just the costume changes alone, which was not all done all at one time). Some of them would have phasers that are out of style, and things like TNG series uniforms still by the 2380s. Just whatever they brought with them.

    The Federation would probably go to the canon TNG Movie era uniforms, given how close that episode was to that era. They could also go more fascist, with things like those phaser straps from "Yesterday's Enterprise", or the black gloves etc from those episodes where a holographic Voyager was evil.

    On another note, I could also see this Federation pulling every jerk move the Starfleet/the Federation almost pulled but didn't actually go through with. Things like screwing over the Baku, dissecting Data (or maybe reactivating Lore, which could have interesting results), etc.
     
  9. USS Fardell

    USS Fardell Captain Captain

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    I ask what I asked elsewhere.

     
  10. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    There are a few ways to do it, though it all depends on how you'd want to craft the scenario.

    My personal preference would be to keep Ben Sisko. So no having him be killed at Wolf 359 or any of that. My change would be Sisko joining Leyton. And maybe you could have it that Jake Sisko also dies at Wolf 359, explaining this darker Sisko. But that doesn't need to be done necessarily. I do think it was in Sisko's nature to go that way anyway.

    All other potential points-of-deviation are reasonable, though.

    The thing is, too, regardless of Sisko joining him or not, what effect does this have on DS9 and the people on her? Not to mention if Sisko joins, what effect does that have on the whole Prophets thing?
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or, following the conclusion of the war with the Dominion (the Founder stands down) Leyton could have relinquished his leadership position and submitted himself and his supporters for arrest ... perhaps directly to Sisko, as the two of them stood in front of the Federation Council.

    SISKO: ... Admiral Leyton controls Earth. And he's not going to give up that control until he's convinced that he has ended the Dominion threat.

    :)
     
  12. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The two episode story-arc is available fully on Startrek.com.

    http://www.startrek.com/watch_episode/_DAXcsyh5gyK
    http://www.startrek.com/watch_episode/iPHDqFEbfYrp


    Power does corrupt. And you can violate things in the name of said things, and convince yourself what you are doing is good. If Leyton takes power, by whatever means and in whatever shape, I don't think he'd relinquish it. There'd be the Dominion war, and the rebuilding after the Dominion war, and the continued threats of other galactic powers, and the continued threats from the Borg, and the continued threats of rogue Changelings, and the terrorists and rebels that rose up to counter his power, and the list goes on. There's always a boogeyman and the galaxy will not have utopia. And I think Leyton would only give up power in utopia.

    Or as Jono said, if need be he could seek to be democratically elected to lead the Federation, but that would only be an effort to gain legitimacy for what will be a dictatorial leadership on his part. I also think it would be directly to the presidency or to a new position of higher authority.
     
  13. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I just had a thought: Why did the O'Brien Changeling approach Sisko? It doesn't make sense. Other than to gloat, but by telling Sisko what he did, the Changeling was helping Sisko, and what reason would the Dominion have to help the Federation? Unless maybe they weren't helping, but only wanted it to look like they were. Maybe the Dominion was legitimately more afraid of a military dictatorship Federation than a democratic Federation, and afraid of Leyton and a cabal being in command and launching a preemptive war against them.
     
  14. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Captain Captain

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    He might declare himself emperor after eliminating the Jedi threat...
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Layton doing immediately what Starfleet was going to end up doing in a couple of years anyway.

    The Dominion wanted more time, Sisko handed it to them.

    :)
     
  16. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not exactly, it's not so much that power corrupts. It's more that it attracts people who are corruptible or already corrupt into those positions to begin with. Power is a corruption magnet, rather than a corruption causer.
     
  17. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Fear the fact that Wesley Crusher is the Luke Skywalker of this scenario.

    It makes things all the more complicated, and creates a moral crisis about democracy and truth. The Federation could have launched first and launched hard, taking measures that would have kept the Changelings at bay, but based on a lie and sacrificing its soul.

    Humans innately fall into despotic patterns when given power over others of an unlimited degree. It's in our nature. Hence democracy, to put that into check where the system consists of the masses and has components of government which keep each other in check.
     
  18. Emperor Norton

    Emperor Norton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm watching "Valiant", and oh my god, Red Squad are a bunch of words I'm not sure I'm allowed to say. Egotistical, self righteous, pompous, playing dress up like adults and feigning everything you'd see an adult do legitimately.
     
  19. USS Fardell

    USS Fardell Captain Captain

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    There is something else to consider: Gowron may think the Leyton Coup as being lead by changelings, rather than by the fear of them, thus leading the Klingons to attack the Federation.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which wouldn't be the case with Layton, because he needed the on-going support of Starfleet's rank and file. So he couldn't have gone all ape-shit despot, or he'd lose control of his power base.

    :)