Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Into Darkness, Sep 2, 2013.
God, I hate philosophers.
How can you know what you don't know? You can learn something you don't know but after your learn it you know it, not before. I got to say this is the most frustrating thread ever.
There is so much fascinating stuff that we can't know yet because we don't have the technology to make systematic tests of it.
Like the question if personality changes when you wipe/replace memories. Does your personality change when parts of your brain are destroyed/rendered incapable? If that were true, it would revolutionize the penal system, for example. We don't know because we can't remove, replace or insert memories yet.
But if it turned out that memories do not have an effect on personality, well, shit. Then where would it come from? What if it turned out that recovered Alzheimer patients only lost their memories, but not their personality? We don't know that either because we don't have a cure for Alzheimers yet.
What exactly do people experience during death? We'd need to be able to record and analyze that. Also near death experiences. Also dreams. And coma. We don't know that because we cannot record experiences yet.
What would happen when you reanimate a braindead patient? Could he report anything? We do not know, we haven't been able to do so yet.
Could we find a way to communicate with comatose patients? That would revolutionize the way we treat patients on life support, and affect the decision when to pull the plug.
And who knows, with all that dark matter and dark energy shit, can we really say for certain that a soul/consciousness/sentience isn't something that we just cannot measure yet?
And the age old question. Does a dog have a soul? Does an ant have one? When is sentience sentience? At what point does brain activity result in awareness in the sense we experience every second? That answer would settle the "abortion is murder" debate.
If we knew what sentience was, we would know exactly what we'd have to do to replicate it. And then we'd be able to create truly sentient artificial intelligence.
The thing about dark matter is that we know it is there by inference. We can measure its gravitational effects on the rest of the universe.
But souls? There is zero effect that we can measure anywhere. Not directly, not by inference, nothing. If they were an energy, chances are we could measure it. The kind of souls that transcend the body are just made up.
You can actually know that you don't know something fairly easily. People do it every day without realizing it. It's human nature to fill in the blanks. If we see something we don't understand, we will either a) run away from it, screaming, wildly waving our hands in the air or, b) try to figure out what about it we don't understand in an effort to advance our own personal knowledge. Taking the right path and undergoing the journey generates the wisdom.
Have you ever met a person with dementia? Stroke? Amnesia? Yes, we know personality changes (to varying degrees) when memories are destroyed.
Yes, personality can change if parts of the brain are destroyed. We have known this with scientific certainty since the 19th century and speculated on it well before that. The most famous case is Phineas Gage.
There is currently much debate in psychology and law over the line between criminality and mental illness. This is why people can plead "Not guilty due to mental disease or defect."
Really? Have you never blacked out due to a night's heavy drinking? Never taken Ambien? Never had anesthetic amnesia?
Yes we can.
Have you ever met anyone with Alzheimers? Personality changes are one of the major symptoms!
You have made the mistake of assuming that because you don't know something, no one else does.
How much of it is a true personality change and how much of it is the result of the struggle? If you restore the abilities to memorize things, to speak, to walk, eat, shit, etc... is the personality restored as well? Would it stay altered? Or can you turn Ghandi into Hitler just by replacing his memories?
Not good enough yet, and it hasn't been used yet to test it. We could treat PTSD patients with that. Or open up an entirely new door for psychology. Can you treat social anxiety by implanting memories of successful situations in social environments?
Well, because there is so much of it that it shows huge gravitational effects. But on a small scale, directly in front of your nose? We assume that dark matter is around here as as well, we cannot see or interact with it.
Depends on the case study. Brains are extremely complex and sensitive things. They can change drastically due to slight alteration, but can also repair amazingly well. There are thousands, if not millions of case studies showing how people's personality changes due to injury or disease of the brain. Again, you are simply ignorant of the decades of research, both experimental and in the form of case studies, and presuming everyone else must be as well. That's just not the case, this is basic psychology -- like, psych 101 in 1955 basic.
Maybe you should read the articles before you make stupid claims. Or did you read those articles in the two minutes it took you to reply to my post? Amazing! If those three aren't enough evidence for you (and I'll except that, three studies isn't a lot, those were just the first three that showed up.) I'd be happy to share some more. There are at least 100 here. And here are some blog posts by Yale neurologist, Dr Steven Novella, which cite even more. Or you could get a basic psych text book. Or, you know, google it. You don't even need to directly manipulate the brain to implant false memories. Researches implanted false memories of a hot air balloon ride in subjects just by showing them a photoshopped image of themselves as children in a balloon. This has been proved over and over. Read the research before you claim it's "not good enough." Shit, I was doing memory alteration experiments as a freaking undergrad in brain science. This is really, really basic stuff.
Get back to me after you've read at least something on the subject of psychology or brain function, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
Or, with more brevity:
I was talking about wiping, replacing and then (importantly) restoring the memories you wiped/replaced (in order to test the effects on personality). And that on a large scale. That can't be done as of yet.
^Yes it can. Again, read the research.
I can get my implanted memory of my special agent Mars vacation today? And they can remove that specific memory again?
Can they implant a Shakespeare play so that I can deliver it like I've been memorizing it for weeks? Can they remove it again? The implantation and removal of specific, detailed memories, long term and short term. That's the scale I'm talking about.
I've always wanted to speed-learn Scots-Gaelic. Perhaps now this is my chance!
1. Quit moving the goalposts. 2. Yes, we probably will be able to do things like that eventually, seeing as we can already manipulate, implant, and remove simpler memories. What do you think memorization is? All you're talking about is speeding up the process.
Seriously man, you need to read up on this stuff, because there is A LOT more information out there than you seem to be aware of.
This thread is nothing but this.
Separate names with a comma.