What happened to the Romulan Empire after Romulus was destroyed

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by The Overlord, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    In Star Trek 11, in the Star Trek Prime timeline, Romulus was destroyed by a super nova in 2387. What do you think happened to the Romulan Empire after that event?
     
  2. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    My guess is the Klingons invaded the Romulan Empire as shown in the future timeline in AGT.
     
  3. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    A period of isolationism lasting perhaps several decades while they sort themselves out, and then an eventual return with a new capital--one named either New Romulus or simply Romulus (in honor of the original homeworld).

    They may be even more dangerous than ever before...
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Without it's capital world, the former Empire will splinter. Occupied worlds with non-Romulan indigenous people will attempt independence, some seeking foreign assistance in the effort. Surrounding powers crave pieces out of the outer portions of Romulan space. Various Romulan planets with large populations each declare themselves the new Romulan capital, the fleet commanders choose sides.

    After a few years there will either be multiple small Romulan Empires, or a civil war for power over what's left.

    :)
     
  5. kythe

    kythe Commander Red Shirt

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    The Romulans already had a mass exodus from a planet - Vulcan - a few thousand years prior, and had successfully located and inhabited a suitable planet. That's how they became Romulans in the first place. As long as they didn't lose their records on how they did it before, I'm sure they could do it again.
     
  6. ngc7293

    ngc7293 Commander Red Shirt

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    That movie never made sense to me. A highly advanced civilization doesn't notice a star going super nova close enough to destroy their home world. If you have star travel ability, you would set up a new home world or move your center of command (Romulans being what they are) to another planet. But what they do is rely on a Vulcan to make things all right in the nick of time. But I suppose if they did everything right, it wouldn't make a good movie.

    Another way to look at it is what would Earth/StarFleet have done if they had found out about a Supernova nearby?
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Call the only ship in the Quadrant, the USS Enterprise, to save them.
     
  8. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Tsst* I wouldn't doubt a lion share of the Romulan population fleeing Romulus before the nova hit. If it was slow enough to explode and Spock being able to travel to Romulus from Vulcan in almost the nick of time to absorb it into the black hole, then I could see the Rommies leaving en masse. The military definitely, civilians yes, the Praetor and senate for sure. The Remans, unlikely they made it. Nero and his crew probably those people who in the face of a natural disaster (Hurricane Sandy/Katrina) know the warning but don't think to move their families away from home.

    Hell even the Klingons abandoned their planet when Praxis exploded. Klingons are said to be stubborn and pig headed.
     
  9. timmy84

    timmy84 Commodore Commodore

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    Its not something addressed to often in Trek, but lets not forget that this wasn't a colony, but the first world of the Romulan Empire. It had to have billions living on it. Even if they got a weeks advanced notice on it, they couldn't evacuate even a fraction of the population in time. Of course things happen in Trek all the time and we just have to accept certain things (like a shockwave moving at warp speeds to be a concern for a planet potentially light years away).

    Star Trek Online is suppose to be a continuation of the existing timeline (running under the time travel theory that changing history creates an alternate timeline, so the original timeline still exists, you just can't return to it from the past anymore). So it exists in a universe where Romulus is destroyed. I don't have all the details (I'm not able to play a lot because of the computer I have) but Romulus is suffering political turmoil. Factions are fighting for dominance, the Klingons are moving to annex star systems (and the reason they haven't gone full force is the war with the Federation) and Starfleet is trying to prevent Klingon expansion while maintaining stability even if the Romulans object.

    I've read that the current TNG story arc in the books may be leading towards the events before the movie (the destruction of Romulus) but I don't remember what year that is supposed to happen. I didn't think the books were at that point yet.

    :borg:
     
  10. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If there is one theory I do like as to why the Romulan sun would go Supernova, it's because I think a remnant Jem'Hadar / Dominion faction decided to detonate it as payback for the Romulans going onto the Federation side during the Dominion war. The Dominion were doing fine until the Romulans tipped the scales. As payback for losing the war, they cause genocide on Romulans home planet.

    Plus the founder impersonating Bashir had similar tech that can artificially cause a Super Nova. It makes sense that a remnant Jem'Hadar / Dominion faction can somehow get access to such a device.
     
  11. Frontier

    Frontier Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Face it, the supernova aspect of the plot of Trek 11 was the single greatest plot hole of all time.

    That's not a dig at the film or if it was good/bad, it's just a factual rational assessment.

    It's a huge gaping plot hole you could fly a Dsyon sphere through with room to spare.

    *Shrug*

    I mean, apparently one star went nova and then just... what? Continued? Caused chain reaction? Expanded exponentially?

    And if Spock had time to speak w/the Romulan leadership, then go home to Vulcan, talk to their leaders, who then decide not to help, and then hatch a plan with Picard and Data and Geordi (according to 'Countdown' comic) and what not...

    ...Seriously, the Romulan government wouldn't have bothered any level of evacuation during the week or two or three all of that took?

    And how would their not have been galactic panic at a single super-nova expanding exponentially or causing chain reaction novas?

    Not to mention that if it was expanding as such or chain reacting, it would have reached the UFP or Klingons sooner or later, so why would Vulcan refuse to help?

    For that matter, why would logical Vulcan refuse to make a great show of trust and empathy by stopping such? Whether or not Romulus is their enemy, it is illogical to allow life to be lost - especially on that scale - due to politics or any other reason. Especially when the ability to help requires so little as 1 person in 1 ship with 1 substance.

    None of it makes any bit of sense.

    Unless you need a plot for a film and don't care how you get from A to B.

    Not the first time for Hollywood or Trek to do it, not the last.

    Just the single biggest example of a plot hole in modern (and likely all of Trek) history.
     
  12. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One thing I've always wondered is how could a single supernova threaten the entire galaxy? In VOY, they witnessed dozens during the Q Civil War and the galaxy came through the ordeal just fine.

    Anyways, as for the empire. I would assume that the Senate would have evacuated and re-established themselves on another world within the Empire. There would be a period of instability, when disgruntled worlds conquered by the Romulans would try to break away and the Klingons may try to claim some new territory.

    After that I would see them sealing their borders for the third time to rebuild in private, reestablish their control and let things settle down.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I have no problem with the timeline as such: it's just the "threatens the galaxy" aspect that calls for a bit of explaining.

    It's quite plausible that Spock is the only politician of any clout to take seriously the rantings of some mad genius who says "Hey, this perfectly well-behaving star is going to explode in a few weeks, even though nobody else can see the signs". The leadership of Romulus will simply go "This is crazy - we know how stars work, and this one is not going supernova any time soon", and it's just that this time they are dead wrong, literally.

    Plenty of time for Spock to beg people on both sides of the border to take the problem seriously; less time to work out the red matter solution once the Vulcans accept the truth; and too little time to deliver the solution before the star goes kaboom.

    As for the "threatens the galaxy" aspect, it could simply be that the loss of Romulus would threaten the galaxy - with political chaos. On the other hand, Spock does seem to worry about stopping the supernova even after Romulus is already gone, as if he only had minutes in which to stop further havoc, rather than the decades that would be involved if a realistic supernova kept expanding towards neighboring stars. Perhaps this is a hyper-supernova of some sort (possibly even artificially induced), and it is exactly because of its exotic and unique nature that people refuse to believe in it until it is too late?

    Star Trek makes mention of several advanced, supposedly interstellar civilizations ceasing to be when their homestar goes supernova. Probably not overnight, but still. Supposedly, then, the evacuation of a couple of Romulan bigwigs to another planet in the Star Empire, and the establishing of a new government, would merely slightly delay the inevitable: by some unknown mechanism, the conquest and dissolution of the Star Empire by its enemies would be assured.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I think when spock said "threatens the galaxy", he meant it in a more political sense.

    With a fractured and weakened Romulan species, that invites the Klingons to get revenge. That can also invite many races that the Romulans have pissed off to attack.

    The sheer chaos from that would be unmeasureable.

    It could turn into 1 giant blood bath very easily.

    Which could eventually draw the Federation right back into war so soon after the Dominion war.
     
  15. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    It would be a blow, but the Romulan Empire would keep chugging along. Romulus might have been the home planet, but the empire was huge. I did a quick Google image search for trek maps, and while they're all a bit different, the Romulan Empire was comparable in size to the Klingon Empire and the Cardassian Union.

    I don't see why the Empire would erode at all or face additional threats from its neighbors. Their battle ships would still be out there patrolling and any ships stationed on Romulus would have taken off, in tact, with refugees. They had some warning, so the leaders would have set up a base of operations elsewhere. There's no indication that all their shipyards and manufacturing were concentrated on Romulus. And the fact that the Narda existed means that mining took place on other planets.

    If Washington D.C. were to be nuked a couple weeks from now, it's not like states would secede and Mexico would invade. We'd definitely lose something, but the infrastructure and the military are still there. Farming and manufacturing would go on, local and state governments would be fine, the federal agencies would reform themselves quickly enough.
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    OTOH, in terms of population or industrial importance, taking out Romulus might well be comparable to taking out mainland US and seeing how well Hawaii and Alaska will fare alone. Colonies tend to be puny affairs in Star Trek...

    Also, taking out Romulus might lead to the government relocating - and being attacked en route by a dozen different factions wanting to be the next government. At the end of the week, there would be sixteen new capital planets and fifty-eight separate warfleets of changing allegiances; at the end of the second week, there might be just three capital planets left, and those would be the ones with so little factual power that nobody could be bothered to destroy them. That's Romulans for you - backstabbing schemers since their very first onscreen appearance!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    But are the Romulan colonies puny, or are the population and resources more evenly distributed? I don't think there's an answer in canon, but I picture it as reasonably well distributed. The Romulans were powerful enough to turn the tide in the Dominion War and too powerful for the Federation and the Klingon Empire to deliberately pick a fight with or conquer. How would they maintain a large empire without a great many powerful/resource rich planets? I don't see all of that power coming from one planet with a few puny colonies.

    Would this be much more dangerous than usual? They probably guard against assassination on a daily basis, being the paranoid people they are. And do we know that there are a dozen powerful opposing factions just waiting for an opportunity to pounce? I'd think the Romulans would pull together in the face of a crisis. They're xenophobes - their first priority would be maintaining their borders and not looking like a target to their neighbors.

    If this were the Klingon Empire, sure. A hundred different clans would battle it out. But the Romulans always seemed more united than that. They had their problems, but they didn't give the impression that the empire was on the verge of collapse. Quite the opposite, actually.

    But if you're starting out with the "puny colonies" viewpoint, we're not going to agree. Your argument does make sense if the colonies are small.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The interesting thing is, we don't know whether the UFP is any better distributed as such. We know it consists of more than one homeworld, but we have only seen glimpses of two that appear to be harsh wastelands that pose serious problems even to their native (?) inhabitants - Vulcan and Andor. And we never saw a colony that amounted to anything much. The biggest on screen so far is Deneva, a well-established, at least century-old "former freight hub" that only had "almost a million" inhabitants, and could go silent for a full year before Starfleet paid any attention.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The Romulan Empire is so centralized (see: Nemesis, where one room full of people are killed and Shinzon effortlessly takes over) that a collapse is very much a possibility.

    To say I'm looking forward to the post-Romulus novels would be an understatement. The Romulan Way told the story of the Surak/S'Task schism and the beginnings of the Romulan Empire. We may soon see it's end, too.

    What effect that may have on the rest of the Typhon Pact (the novelverse's Romulan/Breen/Gorn/Tzenkethi/Kinshiya/Tholian alliance) will be intetesting, to say the least. It could have the effect Chernobyl did on the USSR.

    I'm not sure if a fictionalized supernova counts as a plot hole. I mean, human/alien hybrids like Spock are just as impossible, as are transporters and Genesis devices. They're just fantasy elements. A supernova exploding at multiwarp speeds and covering thousands of lightyears in a few days is part of that space opera silliness, IMO. Especially if it's caused by alien technology, as was attempted on the Bajoran sun in "By Inferno's Light"

    Apparently, real-life supernovae can have catastrophic effects on worlds 3000+ light years away, buring off ozone layers with x-rays and gamma rays. How far is Romulus from Earth, Andoria, Vulcan, Bajor, Cardassia, Kronos and the rest of Trek's main worlds? They always seem just a short journey from each other. Not quite "threatening to destroy the galaxy" but certainly wiping out our corner of it.

    http://www.universetoday.com/49401/could-a-faraway-supernova-threaten-earth/
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  20. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    I'll concede that canon is on your side here, though I think the canon could have been better thought out. We did see a lot of hellacious colonies. You'd think that the goal of every race would be to build a comfortable, prosperous "New Earth" or "New Romulus" but we never saw one.

    The problem is that they didn't fictionalize it, and the viewer is left to assume it's an actual supernova. If they'd said "supernova enhanced by alien technology," that would be different. The other fictional elements listed are clearly the product of imagination. The writers needed to toss in some sort of qualifier, but they dropped the ball. I know I had a wtf moment when I heard Spock say a supernova would destroy the galaxy.