What did you like about Nemesis?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Coloratura, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. CaptainStoner

    CaptainStoner Knuckle-dragging TNZ Denizen Admiral

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    That was an aspect of the last two TNG films that bugged me. It apparent in INS, this Data-regression syndrome, as well as NEM. I think it may have been done for the benefit of the general audience, but I had the same impression: that Data was suddenly back around S3 or something.
     
  2. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    In Insurrection Geordi said that Data had removed the emotion chip. Despite what Brent Spiner says on the new DVDs he has said in the past that he didn't like the chip.

    Still in the end I thought he was more human than ever before byt sacificing his own life as he did.
     
  3. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, if I recall correctly, both of these are true, hence the comment about all factors being understandable. If the final script stayed closer to the original, then the bulk of the movie's forward momentum would have depended on Picard the Well-Renowned History Buff leading the Away Team mission while Action Hero Riker Vs. Borg Queen would have been the subplot. With Picard (the larger character) doing all the heavy action scenes, suddenly that was the main plot.

    And I believe that when Stewart suggested that Riker and Picard change places, that Frakes happily accepted that because it would free him up to concentrate more on direction.

    Ultimately, what we get is the beginning of Picard the action hero and Riker taking the backseat, both for a change, and while they might have been detrimental moves for future TNG films, they were played to very excellent effect in First Contact (for some reason :) ).
     
  4. Bones2

    Bones2 Commodore Commodore

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    I think it makes more sense to have Riker on the away team and Picard on the ship. Because of Picard's relationship with the Borg. After all, if we'd have had the opening Locutus scenes, and then Picard has nothing to do with the Borg for the rest of the film, it would have felt a little off.
     
  5. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sure, it just goes against what we've mostly seen in TNG, and that's fine given that FC is supposed to be an epic film. It flips the traditional Picard/Riker dynamic around, but narrative-wise, I agree.

    At least there was a hint of the old ways: Picard was among the first to get to the Phoenix, and not Riker.
     
  6. Bones2

    Bones2 Commodore Commodore

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    Well, I understand more the complaints about action hero Picard in Insurrestion. But then, it's not completely contrary to TNG. After all, he was on the mission in Chain of Command. He is clearly a capable soldier if necessary. And in the films, it was necessary.
     
  7. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It isn't out of character for Picard to be engaged in action (the Die Hard episode anyone?). And Riker ALWAYS led the away teams in the show. And it makes much more sense to have Picard deal with the Borg, not Riker. How would that have worked? Picard is on Earth, senses the Borg aboard his ship, and he goes: "Riker, get back to the Enterprise, kill the Borg."?
     
  8. SRFX

    SRFX Captain Captain

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    Wait....the Die Hard episode?
     
  9. Bones2

    Bones2 Commodore Commodore

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    Starship Mine, I believe.
     
  10. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's not out of character, but it's out of the norm. Let's all remember that Picard was traditionally a diplomat and academic first, fighter second, hence why the action-oriented character of Riker had to be created. For every episode where Picard had to get his hands dirty, Riker probably had 5 or more. I never said Picard wouldn't fight, but whenever he did on TNG, it was rare. That's what makes his fights special.

    Even then, in Starship Mine, he carefully maneuvered his way around the ship, taking terrorists out with resourcefulness, wits, and planning, which is nearly the opposite of how he took out the entire bridge crew in Nemesis (not a lot of planning, a whole lot of PEW PEW PEW!).

    Like I said earlier, within the context of the FILM itself, having Riker and Picard switch roles is appropriate (again, that's why a few posts ago, I said it was okay "all things considered.") And Riker didn't ALWAYS lead the Away Teams -- Picard had once in a while overridden Riker to lead a team himself despite Riker's objections.

    I'm pretty sure that had it not been the Borg but some other villain, Picard would have stayed behind with the Phoenix because of his famous scholarly side. But again, there's nothing wrong per se with Picard leading the fight with the Borg either, it's just not what we see very often in TNG.

    (I'm now waiting for someone to tell me that Picard was somehow more swashbuckling than Kirk, a better martial artist than Worf, stronger than Data, and more impulsive than Archer).

    Oh, if only Shazam! hadn't cut out the words all things considered when he cited my post... :)

    This I'm kind of iffy about, however. Certainly he's a capable soldier, we've seen that several times (BoBW, Yesterday's Enterprise, etc. etc. etc.). But I don't know about his turning into a physical action hero as a form of resolution. Let's also remember that Chain of Command wasn't resolved with guns blazing, but partly because of Picard's integrity and willpower (something I think speaks far more about him than any of his movie fights).

    I mention this because there's Shatner Kirk. He solved a film by getting into a face-to-face confrontation twice out of seven movies... and this is Man of Action Kirk. It just seems very odd to me that Picard is put into these situations by writers all four times he's on screen. Even Kirk and Khan were never truly face-to-face. Primarily, I blame the writers for maneuvering Picard into such routes, and they're just a few reasons why I don't like INS and NEM (it was particularly cartoony in NEM, in an 80s Stallone flick kind of way).

    With the Borg Queen, sure I can believe that scenario as it was on the Enterprise itself. I can also forgive Soran (to a point) as it was the first TNG movie AND that Picard hadn't yet turned into some sort of dynamo yet (he really did fight like an old man! :) )
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  11. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    1) The Enterprise. She never looked so good or so real. The CG model used in Nemesis is actually my avatar.
    2) The Valdore. Takes the premise of the TNG warbird and gives it a dose of realism.
    3) The movie's potential. The execution...eh...not so much.

    I'll leave it at that.
     
  12. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Definitely with you on the Enterprise E as well. I have the Blu-ray of the film, and when the E would do I flyby I'd pause the Blu-Ray (which gives exceptional screen caps I might add) and just look at it. The "E" is not my favorite, but it is a beautiful ship and you can see all the detail they put into it.

    J.
     
  13. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  14. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly what a Trek movie needs. Special stuff. What I like about all the TNG movies is that they put the characters in special situations. They would have never killed off Picard's family in a regular episode, or gave Data an emotions chip or destroyed the Enterprise for good.
     
  15. SRFX

    SRFX Captain Captain

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    I wish they wouldn't destroy Enterprises. It hurt in Star Trek III and it hurt in Generations.

    It's not that I value the ship more than the crew - it's that it is an icon, a representation of something lost (and I am person who deals with change with difficulty) and watching the Enterprise blow up was like watching your childhood home burn to the ground. It worked well in ST3 because it was the only way to win the no-win situation, and Kirk was so visibly shaken by what he'd done, so I can excuse it. In Generations, it was the result of sloppy writing that seemed like they WANTED to destroy the ship at any cost.

    I was glad they didn't fall back on this for Nemesis.
     
  16. Voyagerian

    Voyagerian Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, we got a decent space battle again, that's a plus, for one....FINALLY Will and Deanna tie the knot, as was meant to be....and as prior mentioned, always loving the Big Enterprise -E...takes a licking, keeps on ticking...after oh, a wee refit at home...Data dying..nope. Even if Brent felt he'd aged out of the part...Will got to kick some Reman posterior....I found Shinzon a decent villain....the cloning concept, while in the real-world is morally improper to me, and many ethicists, does rather work for part of the plot-and which I had some thoughts as to precisely who came up with that particular plan...and would be fitting, at least to me...the Scimitar is about as big and bad as you can get....and it was intriguing to see both the Senate, and the near-neighbor planet and what truly goes on there...Back to Data, at least in B-4, a chance remained...as the clever comic writers of the 'ST' prequel series came up with a way for him to re-emerge....
     
  17. CaptainStoner

    CaptainStoner Knuckle-dragging TNZ Denizen Admiral

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    Even without the emotion chip, Data seemed to be having a lot of "early Data" behaviors, his awkwardness seemed back a few notches from where he seemed to be in S7-GEN-FC.
    I agree about the sacrifice. And can see how Spiner felt he'd covered the ground with Data and this statement was a good coda on Data's journey.
    I've never been more wrong when leaving the theater from NEM. A sequel seemed too obvious - maybe there's bad karma in that - never quite set up the sequel unless you know it's in the bag -
     
  18. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The thing is, all that can work for Generations because it was the TNG crew's first foray into film (and you're right, those are DEFINITELY some special moments), but if you keep using the same special stuff, it won't be special anymore. Killing Picard's family and crashing the Enterprise-D is more or less the same as killing Data and wrecking half of the E-E's hull; it's stuff that doesn't really shock all that much anymore.

    If you keep putting Picard into such fights, those fights lose their luster and meaning, basically (worse yet, it makes someone like Riker a redundant character). After all, in the Trekverse and among the fans, he built up his reputation of being something like the anti-Kirk, someone who was thoughtful and careful and methodical. This was a guy who could outwit Q while arguing that humanity didn't need violence to solve its problems.

    I can forgive FC (actually, more than forgive... it's one of my top 3 Trek films) because it took certain cliches and twisted them, or that there were so many special moments by themselves that they outshone the cliches. For example, we never saw Vindictive Picard in full effect before (Hugh saw nuthin), so to have him go up against the Borg Queen in a way we've never seen before was indeed special. And how often do we see anyone, much less a civilian like Lily, ever tell Picard off?
     
  19. Grant

    Grant Commodore Commodore

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    I agree about Data---he had reached the limit of his arc and they had nowhere to go----except back.

    I hated the fight on the the planet with the natives ( it should have been fanatical Jem Hadar holdouts)

    Other than those two things---i loved the movie
     
  20. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    While I agree that the infamous "dune buggy" sequence serves no point and has very little logic to it, I enjoy it as a fun scene.

    Although, on the nitpicky side of things, why was Data wearing goggles and not Worf? Worf has actual eyes, Data doesn't.

    If we go for a real world explanation, yes Brent Spiner has actual eyes and would therefore need goggles. But wouldn't Michael Dorn as well?