Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Coloratura, Nov 4, 2009.
Echoing: Battle scenes
Picard and Data flying their way out of the Scimitar.
The deleted scenes do have some of the movie's best material. Hell, I watch the Commander Madden scene everytime I watch the movie, as I consider that the true ending of the film.
I liked the end... that final part... when it finally stopped!
Seriously though, the cinematography was well done, and the special effects were very good. Like the others said, the deleted scenes were great and should have been included in the film. The story just never gripped me.
1) Commander Donatra
2) The Romulan Senate's chambers
3) The closing scene featuring "Blue Skies"
4) Riker's speech
I, too, feel tat the movie had the potential to be excellent, but was poorly executed.
I still consider NEM to be the worst Trek film of the bunch, and it would take a lot of re-writing and re-editing to make the film up to par. However, I admit that there are at least a few positive elements from the film:
- The Enterprise-E sets looked gorgeous in this film. The fresh paint, revised LCARS, inclusion of flat-screens, revised lighting, etc. really made the interiors nice. The Bridge never looked better.
- It was nice to see the Romulans featured more prominently a film, even though I felt that they were marginalized
- The visual f/x were better than INS (but still nowhere near the quality of FC... it's too bad ILM wasn't involved)
- The cinematography was interesting, at least some of the time
- The scene where Picard and the crew meet Shinzon was well executed, IMO
I liked Donatra (although, I pretty much like Dina Meyer in anything).
Liked a lot of the Picard/Data interaction (especially the deleted scenes).
Loved that Riker and Troi finally got married, and loved that we got to see Guinan again, if all too briefly.
I liked that it felt like a movie - it had a feel of scope and size to it that many of the Next Generation films (particularly Insurrection) lacked.
And as many have said, the opening sequence in the Romulan Senate was great.
There's a moving piece of music, which got cut back to mere seconds as the end credits rolled... where they reprise key themes. Trouble is we didn't hear this piece anywhere in the film (except speeded up during the buggy chase). It's very mournful of Data's death and uniquely Goldsmith's romantic take on Star Trek. It might even have worked in the context of a traditional opening title sequence... instead ploughing the camera straight into Remus & Romulus. That I liked so much, I bought the soundtrack album to hear more of it. I still think it got reduced in length even then.
On the whole I liked this movie, even though it fell into the trap all 'my Trek era' fell into, going out with a whimper instead of bang... or even a sentimental sign-off as The Undiscovered Country did.
Things I liked:
*The battle scenes....(The TNG show was severly lacking in battle scenes, and this movie didn't disappoint in that department).
*Donatra was cool and sexy; if only they'd let her be like her fellow Romulan 'sista,' the Commander from 'The Enterprise Incident' (without the silly bowl cut, of course); a 24th century variation of the Romulan Commander's uniform would have been cool...
*That Jerry Goldsmith soundtrack is pretty cool too....
I completely agree. The cut-scenes from NEM just kill me. The pacing of the film is very "action-film", but many of these cut character scenes have good depth to them. I would LOVE to see them stitched into a disc release/alternate version.
I was very surprised by the flop that became NEM. I was sure there would be a sequel when I walked out of it. I still think its box-office performance was affected by the oversaturation of TNG on television, and the oft-overlooked fact that it was released in direct competetion with Two Towers.
What I liked most about NEM was the TNG crew interaction, which is also why those cut scenes are a sore point. I also loved the look of the Ent-E, both interior and exterior, in this film.
I have been a MASSIVE hater of this film ever since the day I saw it in the cinema, and my opinion of it got worse and worse each time I saw it.
The problem I guess was that I was too hung up on what I wanted the film to be, rather than taking it for what it was. Finally, after a few years went by and I hadn't seen it for a while so I watched it a couple weeks ago (I was actually planning on starting a thread entitled: "Nemesis - It's actually not bad", but I've been busy with end-of-semester projects.)
Anyway, the good stuff from NEM:
- Picard/Shinzon: Shinzon may not have been the best ST villain ever, but he was certainly not the worst and was at least INTERESTING. This is a character I wanted to see on screen more. And his interactions with Picard were always engaging and exciting. It's a shame he just didn't get to actually do something bigger and more maniacal. Khan at least got to make Genesis.
- Data: He felt in character and consistent and not over-the-top throughout the movie. He was comic relief in GEN, villain-fodder in FC and more comic relief in INS. At least in Nemesis, he was a significant component of the story and the scene where Data tells Picard what it means to be human is excellent and I think THIS is where the movie hit it's stride for me.
- Space Battle/Special Effects: Visually this movie is stunning. I am still only watching it on DVD (upscaled on the PS3 mind you) and it looks amazing. Can't wait to get it on Bluray). The space battle is excellent (although I wish the Romulans weren't disposed of so easily) and is truly exciting. When Worf reports that they have exhausted their complement of torpedoes and the Scimitar's shields are still at 75%, you get a real sense of fear and hopelessness.
- The Story: Overall, the story is GOOD. It's really really good. It's just the execution that's poor and to echo everyone else's opinions, the DELETED SCENES SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN. These scenes round out the movie and everytime I watch them and Rick Berman's all "we felt these scenes weren't necessary." I am almost yelling at the TV: "NO! THESE SCENES WERE NECESSARY YOU FOOL. IT WOULD'VE MADE YOUR MOVIE SUCK LESS!"
So yeah, in a landmark decision, I am elevating Nemesis to my second least favourite ST movie after Star Trek V.
Although I don't like Nemesis generally, I appreciated the way all of the characters were introduced in the wedding reception scene for the benefit of audiences unfamiliar with Trek -- the general public are probably aware of who the "bald captain" is but needed a bit of help knowing who his first officer and counselor are, and which one is "the robot". Compare that scene with the opening scenes of Insurrection where the audience is expected to immediately know who everyone is: Who are those women dressing Picard? His whores? Who is that bearded man who just came in? The eunuch? Is the man with the weird mechanical eyes Picard's PA? Why is Picard so happy to see this "Mr Worf"?
Nemesis also had a good space battle scene (although it went on for far too long). The Bassen Rift provides a backdrop for some rarely seen close-quarter combat (even DS9's battles were in open space and never as dramatically confined), and the Enterprise is seen flying "upside down" at several points, shaking off Trek's past instances of depicting space as nothing more than a flat, black sea.
It was also good to see Tom Hardy having the courage to act so well through his bad lines and ugly costume.
My problems with this movie are similar to my feelings towards Trek XI - I just flat out hated the story and the way it was presented. The saving grace for Nemesis is that 7 TV series and 3 movies later I at least cared a little for the characters and enjoyedtheir interactions.
For the most part, I also think the movie looked excellent barring the odd made-for-TV lighting techniques such as the lights going all dark and mysterious when Troi performs her psychic connection.
I liked the space battles, loved the ramming sequence, thought Data jumping through space was quite cool.
The nature vs nurture angle was there but not explored nearly enough. The idea that Picard's clone and Data's twin show up at the same time is overkill. One or the other, please.
I like Tom Hardy as an actor but feel an opportunity was lost by not casting Stewart in the role. He's always angling for more to do in these movies. At least then it wouldn't have been at the expense of other characters (Beverly's first line is 20 odd minutes into the movie; she doesn't even get a line at the wedding).
I quite like this aspect of the film! I like the fact it didn't feel it had to FORCE the characters down our throat just for the sake of screen time. The movie introduced characters when it was necessary and the right time for the story, rather than giving them token lines or dialogue that should've been more appropriately delivered by another character.
Also I forgot to mention in my previous post, probably my favourite scene is Picard standing on the Romulan senate floor, recognising the significance of this event. It felt like a true milestone, and something particularly Trek.
Same here. I love that ending. I love the look on Picard's face when Madden calls him "Jean Luc" and the withering stare when Madden realizes what just happened , I love the characters trying not to laugh behind Picard's back. Oh, and the chair with the seat belts and the very disapproving Mr. Worf, loved that too. Great scene.
It certainly does little to push the idea that Baird's a good editor, because apparently he's not, as these scenes would have done an excellent job of fleshing out the characters on a more personal level, and they only took a few moments in the film.
There's a cut scene where Beverly is discussing Starfleet Medical with Picard. This takes place during the wedding party. This is also the scene that has Wesley in it.
It's good to see more people coming out and saying what they liked, here. When I first joined this forum, it looked like every second topic in the Movies forum was aimed at bashing Nemesis. Personally, I like the film a lot. I don't love it, but I do like it a lot. I think a lot of the hate aimed at it may be because it performed so badly, and seemed to spell the end for Trek at the movies.
I think that was part of it. It was lukewarm and bad reviews mixed with despair, and I think it created a potent backlash against Rick Berman/Brannon Braga/Paramount in general. Now, I do believe Stuart Baird deserves a lot of the crap thrown at him, because I think he did a terrible job in fleshing out the movie. Some of the best scenes were cut, the story is just told in as pedestrian a manner as possible, and it is known that he, quite frankly, didn't care about the movie itself, and when you as the Director lack passion, the movie will lack it.
I think Baird gets a bit of an unfair rap too. The deleted scenes people think would have improved the film would have contributed to a more disruptive pacing, I think. I like the ending, with B4 starting to remember Blue Skies, Picard walking down the corridor with a slight smile, realising Data may not be lost after all. It's a fairly sombre ending, which I don't mind, but there is that hint of positivity at the end.
And for all the criticism Baird gets, I think there should be some credit where it's due. Nemesis looks and feels much more like a movie than the other TNG features, which is no bad thing.
Regarding cut-scenes, the studio fat cats are complete gits for getting the running length of a movie down. If shaving a few seconds off means more showings per day, they'll try their best to make that happen and it's ALWAYS the character stuff that gets sacrificed.
After watching the should-have-been-left-in scene* that J. posted here (thanks! ) I watched a bunch more of the deleted scenes on Youtube. Picard and Beverly just casually chatting as old friends was very nice, but then Wesley showed up and it became really painful (he's in Starfleet again?) and forced, as though Wheaton wasn't really interested. The lines didn't help either..."Technobabble engine!" then oh look, babes.
I liked the Madden scene mostly. Levar Burton especially helped to sell it with his quiet look of amusement. It did make me wonder just how Madden got assigned to the E though; I always liked that bit in Riker's backstory where Picard selected him from a huge field of contenders because Riker's file was so strong, including his refusal to allow a previous captain to beam into a dangerous situation. I wonder if Picard had a hand in picking Madden, but I suppose it's more likely he was just a plot device to slip in Riker's parting gift for Picard , with no further thought put into it by Logan. The seatbelt gag didn't work for me at all though, it seemed too proud of itself and the camera oddly lingered on the goofy ensign for a bit too long. I really appreciated Picard's line about heading to Deneb though, it was a cool "full circle" line for fans.
*BUT one thing about the Picard/Data scene that really bugs me is the emphasis on Data acting like he's still in the middle of the series's run. I guess that was Spiner's choice to pretend the emotion chip never existed, but the big-time character regression Data showed in the movie is one of its major problems IMO. As good as this scene's dialogue is, it had a strong feeling of "been there, done that" to it, kind of like Geordi re-explaining humor for the umpteenth time after Data pushed the poor doctor into the holo-ocean during Worf's promotion back in Generations.
Oh and I forgot to mention something you guys have brought up now, which is how great the Enterprise interiors looked this time around. The bridge especially is probably my 2nd favorite Trek bridge, after the still-to-be topped Enterprise-D quasi-redress from Generations.
I can hardly find anything that I like about that movie. Out of context, the Enterprise crashing into the Scimitar was pretty fucking great. But within the context of the movie, it was awful.
The scene in the stellar cartography, while being forced, was good, too: Data is finally the one who gives Picard advice.
But the movie as a whole... ugh. So many failed opportunities. So badly directed its not even funny anymore. You even can have fun with all the flaws in The Final Frontier, but you can't with the flaws of this movie.
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