What Did Picard Mean?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by T'Girl, Jun 22, 2014.

?

What did Picard mean by 150+

  1. 150+ planets total

    6 vote(s)
    12.0%
  2. 150+ Federation members

    29 vote(s)
    58.0%
  3. 150+ Species homeworlds

    12 vote(s)
    24.0%
  4. Something else

    3 vote(s)
    6.0%
  1. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's a good point, iguana_tonante. While some members might mainly contribute farmlands or minerals, others may have large fleets of powerful warships, or other incredible technologies to offer. What's the expression...each according to his means, or however it goes?
     
  2. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    I think it's 150+ Federation members, as I recall reading somewhere from a close-to-production offscreen source that the number 150 was chosen to parallel the United Nations.
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I believe one of the prime reason the Federation was formed in the first place was the Romulan War, and the fear of the Romulans attacking in the future.

    Subsequent to the formation more species would have added their star systems (or multiple star systems) to the Federation for the benefits of mutual defense.

    But as time went on and the Romulans don't attack that motivation for staying in the Federation would have faded. Species would have canceled their memberships and went their own ways, by the time period just prior to TNG the Romulan War would have been nearly two centuries in the past.

    Some fans have posted here in the past that the Federation may have organizationally changed between TOS and TNG, going from (or attempting to) a United Nation type organization to more of a Nation State with the members require to surrendering large measures of sovereignty.

    I never embraced that thought. However such a move could account for whole sections of the membership departing.

    Members considering canceling their membership could have said in council, "the Central Interstellar Hetaerocracy's ambassador invited our rep to diner last night, and ..."

    Given that Kirk was speaking to another Human, the "we're" (imho) meant Humans. Humans had a presence on a thousand worlds. There'd be all of Earth's colonies, the worlds of other Federation members and their colonies (I could imagine hundreds of thousands of Humans living on Vulcan), and worlds not aligned with the Federation of well.

    We're on a thousand worlds.

    I would think that once a colony became independent, whether to join the Federation (or a different grouping) would be their decision. I could see a species homeworld not being a part of the Federation, but once independent the former colony seeking to join.

    Dominica join the UN on December 18, 1978, becoming the 150th member.

    By the time of First Contact's release the UN membership had been steady at 185 members for about two years.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  4. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    ^That's what they said, though...I want to say it was in one of the Okuda reference books, but I'm not sure. They were going for something of roughly the same scope, so "over 150" is close enough.
     
  5. doctorfoto

    doctorfoto Commodore Commodore

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    Echoing some of the sentiments here, I agree with the thought that Picard was referencing how many worlds (which I interpret as member species, who may occupy multiple planets) currently hold Federation member status.

    Bear in mind though that generally speaking, we've actually seen relatively few species that hold that status - compared to how many aliens we've encountered who do not. TOS, TNG and ENT were primarily exploring strange, new worlds. Voyager was naturally not visiting Federation planets. And most of the species featured on DS9 didn't hold Federation membership either, particularly the Bajorans. Indeed, the Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Naussicans, Hupyrians, Morn were not, and the parade of alien species passing through the station were likely outside of Federation membership as well. So yeah - I think there's a lot of wiggle-room to work with.
     
  6. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, on a thousand planets might just be that, counting everything from the Deneva colony (which I took to be something like a population of hundreds of thousands), all the way down to Fred and Nancy Crater's lonely archaeology encampment. Add 'em all up, and you could have a human presence on a thousand planets.
     
  7. Fashion Victim

    Fashion Victim Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Yeah I always assumed he meant the primary homeworlds of it's members, like Earth Vulacan Betazed etc. After all in the Terran system alone we know of at least three inhabited worlds, Earth, Mars, and the moon.
     
  8. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Interestingly, in By Any Other Name, Kirk told Rojan that the Federation has charted "hundreds of habitable planets" of which they could presumably colonize one. What was the status of these worlds? Did the Federation have some kind of a claim staked on them?

    And in Star Trek II, Carol Marcus referenced the "problems of population and food supply"?! :wtf:
     
  9. Ro_Laren

    Ro_Laren Commodore Commodore

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    I never thought about that. I'm not sure what he meant. Good question!
     
  10. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    From "First Contact":

    LILY: I've never seen this kind of technology.
    PICARD: That's because it hasn't been invented yet.
    LILY: What?
    PICARD: There's more I have to tell you. Come on.
    ...
    LILY: How many planets are in this Federation?
    PICARD: Over one hundred and fifty ...spread across eight thousand light years.
    LILY: You mustn't get home much.

    It's a pretty straightforward question and I'd expect Picard to deliver a truthful answer (unless he felt the urge not to commit any further temporal violations).

    So Lily probably talked with Cochrane, so let's forward to "Metamorphosis" in the 23rd Century.

    COCHRANE: Believe me, Captain, immortality consists largely of boredom. What's it like out there in the galaxy?
    KIRK: We're on a thousand planets and spreading out. We cross fantastic distances and everything's alive, Cochrane. Life everywhere. We estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life. We haven't begun to map them. Interesting?
    COCHRANE: How would you like to sleep for a hundred and fifty years and wake up in a new world?

    Frankly, that's the reply I would have expected from Cochrane:

    COCHRANE: What do you think I am Kirk, stupid? My assistant once met your successor from the 24th Century and he told her that your Federation only consists of 150 planets. So what happened to the other 850 planets? You better be honest with me or you can spend the night in your shuttlecraft...! :devil:

    Another good reason to take the information from FC with grains of salt that would enable the survival of the Salt Vampire species. ;)

    Bob
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Okuda does say it is in the UN ballpark, but more importantly, it is large enough a number to account for all the known and mentioned UFP species and still leave room for what would be plausibly added in a spinoff or three.

    I wouldn't - he's always on a hobby horse of some sort or another when talking with lesser species or barbaric cultures...

    The Federation can find unclaimed, habitable worlds at the drop of a hat in DS9 "Sanctuary" still. I guess it simply jibes with the Trek take on how the galaxy is put together: millions of (humanlike) species out there, but billions of potentially habitable worlds, and plenty of ancient cultures that have turned that potential into terraforming reality and then departed.

    All the freight-hauling ships we have seen have been tiny, including the ENT ones that at least were bigger than combat starships for a rare once. With such shipping resources, problems of population could not be solved by emigration, and problems of food supply could not be solved by imports.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Annorax849

    Annorax849 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Weird, I was thinking of doing a poll like this if I hadn't done the other. I just go with species homeworlds. There's no way he included all colonies. Star Charts implied he meant both homeworlds and major colonies, which is certainly possible, but SC's problem was that it tried to list all 150 members, while obviously there would be many that the audience doesn't know about (as seen in TMP and TVH).
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Which of the "star charts" are you mentally viewing? There are quite a few different ones floating around on the internet.

    None of them seem to go with Picard's eight light year long Federation. My own mental picture is everyone in the alpha/beta quad are all situated in the orion arm of the galaxy.

    :)
     
  14. Annorax849

    Annorax849 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    The book Star Trek: Star Charts.

    And assuming you meant 8000 ly, there is this one (not Star Charts):
    http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149743/3326912-1806122871-galac.jpg
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The Star Charts approach is to try and find distant and isolated "hangaround members" to the UFP to justify Picard's figure, which is an obvious case of bragging anyway. We already have the real stars Alpha Cygni and Canopus as UFP territory (if not outright members), and the distance between those is about 3,000 lightyears, to opposing directions from Earth (with Canopus being the closer, about 200 ly antispinward from here).

    8,000 ly for the most distant such pair probably isn't an unrealistic figure, then, considering that Canopus was considered basically a core world in TOS "Ultimate Computer" even if Alpha Cygni represented a far frontier in "Encounter at Farpoint".

    You can probably fit millions of Earth-sized planets between those two real stars in the real Milky Way; in Trek, circumstances might be even more favorable, and each "exo-Earth" a habitable duplicate of our homeworld, thanks to all that ancient terraforming. It wouldn't make much sense for the UFP to claim mere 150 planets out of those, or even the thousand mentioned by Kirk (but it would be possible for mankind alone to have staked a claim to those thousand, out of the hundreds of thousands claimed by the UFP members in total).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I suppose in some ways, I can understand feeling a bit "smug" about humanity's achievements in the 24th century. I mean, think about it:

    No more hunger :techman:
    No more slavery :techman:
    Limitless energy :techman:
    No more headaches (?!) :techman:
    No more colds :techman:

    And that's apparently just for starters! I'd feel pretty damn proud to be a human being with all that having been achieved! :)

    On the other hand, there were a few creepy ones that slipped in, such as:

    Detecting the seeds of criminal behavior :wtf: (this one really needs clarification!)

    It does make me wonder how much privacy is left. Maybe that's why people are lining up in the rain to join Starfleet; to get a few moments without watchful eyes over them! :eek:
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    PICARD: Ginger tea with honey, eighty degrees Celsius.
    KENNELLY: Ginger tea?
    PICARD: My Aunt Adele's cure for the common cold.
    KENNELLY: Common, hell. I picked this up from the Cardassian liaison last weekend. It's some damn virus they've sicked on me.


    I'd say they still haven't managed to eliminate the common cold by the 24th Century, but neither did they figure out a method for better hair implants (unless Picard deliberately decided he wanted to look more Deltan). ;)

    Bob
     
  18. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I was thinking of Datalore:

    Wesley: Have you got a cold?
    Data: A cold what?
    Wesley: It's a disease my mom says people used to get.

    I did not know a cold was considered a 'disease', though. Then again...what else would it possibly be?

    I'd forgotten about Aunt Adele... :)
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Other fans occasionally make the same claim, but I don't think their power generation would be "limitless."

    The starships have to have M/AM reactors to move themselves at warp speeds.

    It something like 200 people in a submarine have a nuclear reactor powerful enought to power a small city. That doesn't mean every group of 200 on Earth have their own reactor. Earth likely has suficiant generation capacity to supply the populace with a good amount of power, but if too many peope tried to use their replicators at the same time their version of the grid would brown out.

    :)
     
  20. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Something else to keep in mind is what numbers Picard would actually know off the top of his head. For example, when asked how many entities are part of the United States, we would say 50, and not list the 5 territories or various islands. So I figure he was giving her the ballpark number on worlds represented on the Federation Council, of which there would be some duplication of species.