Wertham lied

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by A beaker full of death, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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  2. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Is that why you have a 1950s avatar to match your outlook?
     
  3. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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  4. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That "snark" as you put it, or entrenched cynicism as I see it, is the reason superheroes have turned drab and dull (Raimi notwithstanding - he still believed in the source material). No one's willing to believe in earnestness anymore. Where Wertham failed this attitude is succeeding.
    For that reason I'll make the following prediction: Man of Steel will bomb. Superman is a creature of light and fancy. Any attempt to weigh him down is doomed to failure.
    I mean, come on: Hansel & Gretel, Witch Hunters?? Really?
     
  5. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What's wrong with Hansel & Gretel? Sure, the film probably sucks, but at least Hollywood is creating some new IPs rather than regurgitating the same crap over and over again like the upcoming Oz film.
     
  6. Savage Dragon

    Savage Dragon Savage Mod Moderator

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    You heard it here first folks!
     
  7. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    What you call "entrenched cynicism" I call "depth." Or at least attempts at achieving it. Nobody wants to see a goody two-shoes Superman in 2013. We expect a bit more complexity these days.

    Everything doesn't have to be grim and gritty, but some effort at realism (as in portraying characters as if they were real people) is a good thing.
     
  8. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    :cardie: Not sure if serious...


    Well, there's a thorough and complete non-response to the point I was making in response to your OP... :rolleyes:
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This.
     
  10. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except of course the idea of Hansel/Gretel as witchhunters isn't original. It's been done before in fiction.
     
  11. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    What other way is there to interpret that comic panel?

    The men are told anyone they touched has passed on a deadly pathogen. Flash, Atom and Green Lantern all respond with worry for female companions. Who's the first person Batman thinks of? Robin? Sorry, it sort of hard to NOT see the subtext there, it's pretty spelled out that billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne doesn't think of one of the many women he courts but of his teenage male ward.
     
  12. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But he doesn't have any attachment to any of those women he courts. They are just a cover for his guise as a playboy.
     
  13. RandyS

    RandyS Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, it doesn't, and that's exactly the point. Everything HAS become grim and gritty, and anything that isn't is automatically (and incorrectly) written off as "campy".

    And that's just sad.
     
  14. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I think his point is that attempts at realism have been interpreted as grim and gritty.
     
  15. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The thing with psychoanalysts is... most of them have an issue themselves, and generalize it and project it on the entire humankind.

    Wertham isn't any different from those who say video games make people violent, or watching Seinfeld makes you gay. You can cite studies for any shit.
     
  16. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    Well, that's a nice false dichotomy you've got there, but I'm having none of it.

    Yes, that is part of it. I get the impression guys like beaker really do see anything with shades of moral ambiguity or complex characterization as "cynical" and stereotypically "grim and gritty," when that's not the case. There's nothing cynical about acknowledging that real people are flawed and make mistakes.
     
  17. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'll be interested to see how Man Of Steel does. I do think that the current "dark" treatment of much skiffy material which has it's basis in less jaded times has become tedious, but it's also true that wandering very far afield from that stance these days is often the kiss of death for any production that requires a huge audience in order to generate a profit.

    I like a lot of that so-called "realism" (which is actually just as escapist as the old stuff, rendered in a different palette) but it has, for the moment, crowded every alternative out of popular movie fantasy as effectively as McDonalds and other fast food have come to dominate the big food service industry. The exception? Animated movies putatively targeted at children.

    Myself, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Oz movie but I fully expect it to be a box office bomb. It's visually bright, colorful and clearly a whimsical take on the material - too pretty and too happy by half to amuse the young adults who must be persuaded to consume it en masse. Burton would have found his way to whatever sickliness could be found in the story and visual design and the thing might have had a shot. Raimi, peculiarly enough, is too much in love with the native tone of his source material for this to succeed.
     
  18. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    The last time I was at that site it was clear to anyone with eyes that it was a humor site and not a serious examination of old comics. Taking things out of context is the point of the site, it started by pointing that Superman is a dick using old comic covers where he is constantly killing Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen. They aren't saying that he is a murderer.

    Also we're never going back to the simple days of comics where good is good and bad is bad. The audience needs something a little more complex and engaging.
     
  19. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The idea of "societal regression" is a non-starter, sorry. Just because something about the world makes someone unhappy doesn't make it anyone's problem but theirs.
     
  20. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    All agreed, Superdickery firmly has its tongue planted in its cheek, but the humor in that old Batman panel predates the site (same with the Joker/Boner panels from Batman #66.) Needless to say, though, the humor in that panel is pretty evident because it's seriously a major WTF moment in its context. The other heroes mention women they're romantically involved with (romance having a high level of kissing and physical interaction) and along with that contextual setup Batman thinks of... Robin!?!

    It's just odd.

    About the... "topic." Seduction of the Innocent being full of crap I'm sure a lot of people have known for a very long time, comics having been growing out of the CCA for a couple of decades now. And, yeah, it gave us a LOT of crap in the Silver Age but because of that it's now a lot of fun looking back at this stuff.

    I think comics are better off now with more dynamic and interesting characters that are living in shades of gray rather than strictly being "good."