Well, gee, what do you know?! Worf was right!

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by Trekker4747, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    There's plenty of times in the series where Worf makes a suggestion that's a bit on the offense or overly cautious only to have quickly dismissed by either Picard or Riker. And then... He turns out to be right!

    How many examples of this can you think of?

    One comes in "Samaritan Snare" where Worf shows some hesitation in allowing Geordi to go the Pakled ship to affect repairs. He simply suggests to give the Pakleds what they need and leave them to their own devices. Riker dismisses this and thinks it's okay to sen Geordi.

    Well, lo and behold Worf's caution shows itself to have been prudent as the Pakleds do have ill intentions and try and to kidnap Geordi who is almost killed in the encounter.

    Should've listened to Worf, Number One.
     
  2. Xhiandra

    Xhiandra Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I can't think of any examples off-hand, but indeed, that was an important role for the Worf character: in his capacity as Tactical Officer, he had to always have in mind the security of the Ship and its crew more than anyone else, including the Captain: as such, Worf's role in those scenes was to remind us that, yes, the characters know things can go wrong; they've thought of those possibilities, but ultimately decided to extend trust, to approach matters with a softer touch.

    In those instances, sometimes Worf was overcautious or overbellicious but sometimes Picard/the rest of the crew was/were undercautious or too naïve.
     
  3. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In "Cause and Effect", Worf is the one who suggests reversing course to avoid the temporal anamoly, which not only seems like the most sensible option, but in hindsight is probably exactly what they should have done!

    Yet everyone just dismisses the idea out of hand. Even though they had the same conversation and made the same decision to go forward in Time Squared, and barely escaped with their lives.

    You would think they would learn by now!
     
  4. t_smitts

    t_smitts Captain Captain

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    Yes, in "Cause and Effect", turning around would've been PERFECTLY sensible, because they wouldn't have done that the first time!

    (I believe in was "The Nit-Picker's Guide" that first pointed that out).
     
  5. hayesc0

    hayesc0 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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  6. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly, why would they have suddenly changed course the first time through?


    :)
     
  7. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    I Borg. Worf's suggestion was to kill the last surviving Borg, & make it look like it died in the crash. Had they done that & left, no Hugh ordeal, no rogue Borg vessel, none of the events of Descent 1 & 2, & likely lives saved

    Cold? Yes... Try war instead. With an enemy combatant, doctors need to stfu if they plan to endanger themselves or their crew. Rule number one? a dead doctor is no doctor at all, Commander Beverly
     
  8. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I say at least 25% of TNG episodes would have been only 5 minutes long had they listened to Work more often.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed, the argument they should have made is that these time loops which end up with the E-D destroyed are not particularly dangerous, because the events are always reset and nobody gets killed - but they are damn annoying, and so the heroes should press forward and face the time loop for as many times as it takes for them to render it harmless, not just to themselves but to other star travelers as well. The mission of the ship is not to survive, but to accomplish various mission goals arising from standing or specific orders. Survival is optional, and in this case doesn't seem to be particularly unlikely, either.

    In other words, "Shut up, Worf, you are being a coward again!".

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    Worf to some extent was the foil (the alien perspective amongst a predominantly human one, as most of the crew were human or partly so). But even though he made some good denied suggestions, he could have given Picard brain damage had Riker OK'd destroying The Inner Light probe lol..

    Or started a war with the Romulans had Picard OK'd his suggestion to fire back in The Defector lol..
     
  11. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    Perhaps, but I remember Riker responding that changing course could take them into the anomaly for all they knew. Both his and Worf's suggestions were valid.
     
  12. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    As fans we would we have also been spared the wussification of the Borg that followed in those episodes. :borg:
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think there's any validity to Riker's argument - there are an infinite number of alternate courses to take if Worf's suggestion is to be taken, and if all of them lead to the time loop, then there's no harm in following Worf's suggestion. If just one of them does, then they should clearly turn right now, and trust their luck.

    But there is definitely harm in following Riker's suggestion of not altering course, since it's the one and only course that has statistically higher odds of being taken in the infinite alternate universes, and our heroes know that something they did the last time around led to disaster. They can't have done statistically improbable things every time, yet they are still stuck in the loop. So it's definitely time to do something statistically improbable.

    Riker is just not applying his brain. And Data is failing to point out the profound lack of logic in Riker's argumentation, and the great advantages of following Worf's advice, even when even Worf's way could lead to a further loop.

    The thing is, the rogue Borg were among the most harmless we have encountered so far. The more of those, the better. Had this particular bunch of Borg not been rendered rogue, they would have been engaged in Collective things which might have resulted in much greater horrors.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    But, that argument is invalid. Since the first time through (when they first entered the loop) they'd have no reason to change course, so staying ON course will put them into the loop. Changing their course IS the right thing to do as it will alter things from the first sequence of events.
     
  15. Borjis

    Borjis Commodore Commodore

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    "ONE RIKER....ONE BRIDGE!!!"
     
  16. diankra

    diankra Commodore Commodore

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    In some ways, Worf took over what Riker said, back in Encounter in Farpoint, was his role: to say "Are your sure that's wise, Captain?" *

    (*Like all Brits, I am now facing the bizarre mind-image of John le Mesurier as Worf...)
     
  17. Start Wreck

    Start Wreck Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yep, that's a pickle. The only answer I can give (aside from Timo's thoroughly reasonable interpretation!) is that, as per Worf's example of the Mobius loop, there was no first time through. Rather, every time through, they were operating under the same information from a 'previous' loop, telling them to change course. Given the same information, any course change would be the same one, every time, even if they tried to randomise it (randomisation in computers is just based on set criteria, after all).

    They were wrong, but, hey!
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    But the criteria needn't have anything to do with the situation.The course could be set by a random count from a random process at a specific moment - and the moment would depend on when our heroes asked the computer to choose a course. Since we know the loops are non-identical in content (the heroes don't make the same movements and don't speak the same dialogue), the count would not be the same from loop to loop.

    Of course, the heroes don't know that the loops are non-identical. But if they proceed from the assumption that they are identical down to the millisecond, then there is no hope at all, no matter what they do or don't do, because perfect predestination is guaranteed (as it's the only possible way to achieve identical loops).

    The heroes really have every motivation to think that they are merely stuck in a unique loop, or that a series of loops is taking place but merely around a "strange attractor" of some sort, with multiple different loop options producing the same general result of re-looping, but a suitably and sufficiently different take resulting in a breakaway.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    Problem is in "Yesterday's Enterprise" they KNEW they were in a loop because each time through events grew different as they grew more and more aware of what was happening. It's also a matter of "what do we have to lose?" So if they change course that might be what gets them in the loop. So what?! You're in the loop anyway so either you'll do what you're "expected" to do or you'll get out of the thing that has you trapped.
     

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