Way of The Warrior: Battle with the Klingons

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by M.A.C.O., Aug 27, 2012.

  1. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I could cry every time I read responses like that.


    It's fiction, yeah. So would you be okay with Captain Kirk being able to breath in space, for example?
     
  2. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There's a massive difference between "...the lack of realism in Star Trek being absurd and insulting" and the stretching of reality for the purposes of drama.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Thank you.
     
  4. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So if for the "purposes of drama", Kirk would need to be able to breath in space, or survive a 300 meter drop with no injuries, or lift 1000 kg with one arm, you'd accept it? It's just fiction, and drama is everything, right?
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Well, the particular performances above are something I would certainly expect of a member of Earth's space military in the 2300s. That is, assuming there was such a thing as Earth's space military at that date, it would settle for nothing less. And the technology to do that would be at the lower end of the spectrum needed to have a space military in the first place.

    FWIW, the Jedi in the SW prequels appear to do all of the above, and are still supposed to be good dramatic elements. Which they sort of were - until it came time for Palaptine to kill Mace Windu. Which he proceeds do do by chopping off his arms, electrocuting him, and throwing him off a skyscraper. All of which had been previously specifically established as being survivable things! So in the end, it's a matter of balance, not of the absolute level of fantasticality in a fantasy.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. ajac09

    ajac09 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    one thing i noticed about this episode is how the dr is acting. I didnt realize till now that he must have been switched with the changeling because he seems to REALLY worry about odo and even comes and saves him once. and I wonder why star fleet only sent 6 freakin starshps to help.. the klingons had what 50 ships in this battle??!? WTF
     
  7. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, a friend would do that too y'know. :)
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps six starships was all that Starfleet could get to Deep Space Nine within the timeframe they had to gather and assemble a task force.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    It's consistent that Starfleet has no forces anywhere near Bajor, as the place supposedly is out in the sticks - or at least far out of the focus of Starfleet deployments, as everybody originally thought Bajor was insignificant. (Perhaps there wasn't even a Starbase 375 in the neighborhood yet? But even that place was rather distant from Bajor.)

    On the other hand, sending even one ship would still mean that the Federation is not giving up on DS9, which is a much-needed political signal in the circumstances. The ships would not affect the course of the battle one way or the other - but if Gowron fired at them, he'd be committing to much more than if he just fired at a Bajoran space station.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That makes sense. Gowron was hoping to bluff at any rate.
     
  11. SilentP

    SilentP Commodore Commodore

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    Also at least it seemed that the 6 starships in question were a Galaxy-class with a group (perhaps 5) of Excelsior class vessels. With the Galaxy being amongst the heaviest hitters in Starfleet and Excelsiors being among the stronger ships as well makes for a fairly strong mix up. Remember that even though the Klingon fleet was 50 ships, I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number were small light ships like B'rel-class Bird of Preys.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Plus they still had a heavily armed space station supporting them so probably not very good odds for the Klingons.
     
  13. GulGoneCrazy

    GulGoneCrazy Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    i was thinking...if an DS9 could halt whole klingon fleet ,than how the klingons manage invade Cardassian space witch is very likely full of Nor (DS9 type) stations ??
     
  14. SilentP

    SilentP Commodore Commodore

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    You have to remember that the Nor style stations were never really intended to be battle stations, if you could call them that, they were generally just refining stations. All those weapons we saw were additions that Sisko had made (despite them being 'organically' intergrated into the stations structure) specifically to fight the Dominion.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...Also, a clever conqueror would just go around the stations and challenge the Cardassian mobile forces where they would enjoy no support from fortifications, then move against the more heavily defended targets.

    However, it does seem that Cardassian defenses are not to be sneered at. We never got the impression that the fortification technology used in "Tears of the Prophets" would be new to the Cardassian Union as such - it may be just that the beam weapons got a tad stronger, the torpedoes gained a bit more bang, from the new power arrangements. There seems to have been a quantum leap in Cardassian weapons strength between "The Wounded" (which probably features the same weakling weapons used in the old war with the Federation) and DS9 (where the pink beams have been replaced by amber ones that actually can hurt somebody - and perhaps again when the Dominion provided aid. But the actual physical elements of defense may not have changed much, considering that the starships certainly don't change much during these technology leaps.

    An invasion thus supposedly involves large starship forces, such as those seen in "Tears of the Prophets", and not merely the sort of fifty-ship formations seen in "Way of the Warrior". The dialogue in this latter episode certainly allows for very large Klingon fleets, as the only numerical value we get are "over a hundred ships in the first wave already" and "at least twenty warships in the vicinity of the station".

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Firstly because the "nor type" space station in The Way of The Warrior had been massively upgraded by Starfleet.

    Secondly, and perhaps more significantly, because space stations just sit in one place.
     
  17. EmperorTiberius

    EmperorTiberius Captain Captain

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    The torpedos DS9 fires are mostly micro torpedos that are fitted on small craft like runabouts and shuttles. IIRC there are only about 6 full scale lauchers left over from the original station. This could prove why some of them just fly out into nothing - they might not have their own guidance system. Also, Klingons could be using some sort of jamming signal against the station.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I sort of doubt there are any launchers left over from the original Cardassian design, seeing how

    1) the Cardassians supposedly thrashed everything worthwhile when they left, and
    2) the launcher with six torps that Kira does have in "Emissary" is compatible with Starfleet torps.

    More probably, the Enterprise team just initially installed one Starfleet launcher in place of a destroyed Cardassian one as a nominal defense system, and gave Sisko six torpedoes to test-fire it with, and then left Sisko waiting for the next engineering team that would install more hardware (assuming Sisko didn't get booted out of Bajor before that, which was a likely scenario for Starfleet to concern).

    We don't know that.

    We do see in "Tribunal" that the station is stocked with warheads in big boxes that wouldn't easily fit inside "micro" weapons, but that of course tells us nothing about the size of the warheads themselves. (And curiously, the Maquis were supposed to have stolen the warheads while leaving the boxes behind, yet the Cardassians present the boxes as evidence that O'Brien was the Maquis who stole them!)

    We also see the pillbox launchers that fire some of the torpedoes (or compact glowing things at any rate) after popping out of the sides of the weapon sails, but we get no sense of scale. The overall scale of the station is vague anyway, and the "regular" launchers at the tips of the sails have no actual openings visible, so we can tell zip about the torpedo caliber that way.

    The assumption of microtorpedo use thus doesn't seem to have any independent proof on its side, not even a hint in dialogue.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Knight Templar

    Knight Templar Commodore

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    If it has not been mentioned, I believe the Klingons do not fight as well as a group in hand to hand combat because they are an honor obsessed culture. Honorable combat generally requires "one on one, man to man" combat. Not hundreds of warriors taking on hundreds of enemy soldiers at once. Thus they do not make a point of practicing their skills in that regard.

    When engaged in combat, they try to isolate a single enemy individual and fight until they win or die. Much like the Klingon bragging about boarding the Starfleet ship and killing the Tellarite helmsman with his Bat'leth and then fighting the captain (a friend of Sisko's) to the death.
     
  20. EmperorTiberius

    EmperorTiberius Captain Captain

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    ^Micro torpedos are beckround info from a producer or some such, non canon.