Way of The Warrior: Battle with the Klingons

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by M.A.C.O., Aug 27, 2012.

  1. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    So I just rewatched Way of the Warrior for the first time in years. Watching the battle scene with the Klingons vs DS9 the station and later the Klingons vs the Starfleet Officers and Bajoran security forces. The Klingons got their asses whipped.

    How does one of the fiercest races in the quadrant get smacked around that badly? I mean Worf, Sisko and Dax aside, but Kira getting stabbed in the back and still knocking out a Klingon warrior? Not to mention the Klingons can't seem to hit anything with their disruptors but Bajorans can hit them just fine with phasers.

    I always felt the creative team of DS9 took too many liberties with Trek races for their stories. I am I over-analyzing the battle or did the DS9 team turn Klingons in to wimpy punchy bags?
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    One might say Gowron fought this little war not in order to win, but in order to secure his back domestically. Going to war against the UFP gives him war leader status and silences some of his opponents. And going to war with troops spearheaded by poorly armed and trained members of Houses that are Gowron's political opponents allows him to purge his ranks... The undesirables are expended, but they serve to pave the way for a second, more successful wave where warriors from the ranks of Gowron's allies gain great glory.

    However, we also have to factor in that "Martok" the Founder goaded Gowron to attack the station under false assumptions about its defensive capabilities. When it became evident that the station indeed was resisting, Gowron might have done wisely to send in expendable scouting parties first, and only commit his capable warriors later, quite regardless of whether he wanted the scouts dead for political reasons or not.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Rarewolf

    Rarewolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just watched it again. There are plenty of Bajoran bodies littering the place.

    O'Brien didn't come out unscathed. And apart from those 5 was anyone else left standing in ops?

    The station personel had the upper hand - they knew the layout. They'd had a year to get ready for Dominion attacks. The Klingons hadn't fought anyone apart from each other in their civil war for years.

    In hindsight, as much as the SFX still wow me today, the space battle bothers me more. Why is it in multiship battles like this, a single torpedo, a single phaser shot sometimes takes down a whole ship? If one to one battles were that easy they'd be over very quickly.

    Not to mention if you have 5000 Torpedeos, you might as well target a few dozen against the enemy flagship. Still that would have lastable consquences I suppose.

    Besides they don't really aim the torpedos. They just fire in a straight line, its more luck if a target gets in the way!
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Why not? If all ships were equally powerful, there'd be no point in building different ship classes. But when you build a BoP, you are making a compromise: you get a great light offensive unit, but starbase-strength phasers will blow her up with one shot.

    Really, that's only consistent with "Return to Grace" where ground-based ordnance again essentially takes out a BoP with a single shot.

    How can we tell? There'd hardly be any point in flying the things in curved paths if a straight line will result in impact...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This is hardly a trait exclusive to DS9 or even Star Trek as a whole. It's common literary device to boost the heroes abilities, decrease that of the villains, to produce the desired result.
     
  6. Rarewolf

    Rarewolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well looking at the first Torpedo volley a lot of them miss, spinning off to where ever lost Torpedoes go.

    Are station Torpedos more powerful than ship standard too?

    Now of course you could say (as you do with the troops) Gowron is thinning out the older ships too. I don't think the older (D-7) design ever saw use in TNG.

    Why is it (FX rendering time excluded) we rarely see shields in the epic battles, but do for indvidual stand offs?
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...But seeing that there are about fifty targets to choose from, many might be on their way to a more distant meeting.

    This was never suggested in dialogue or even the backstage books. I guess there's only so much antimatter you can pack into a torpedo. But if you connect your phaser bank to a bigger reactor, you get more destruction - and the station supposedly has a lot of power to offer.

    Apart from an ages-old ship returning from a deep space assignment in "The Emissary", there was the ship that retrieved the two Klingon prisoners in "Heart of Glory". Second-rate assignment at best, I'd argue.

    In DS9, these ships no longer fired torpedoes, but were instead fitted with red death rays that formed the first wave of an assault against a starbase. Perhaps akin to the real-world practice of mounting heavy weaponry on outdated ships that can no longer do independent combat but can still act as platforms for such special gear, say, in amphibious landings (and in this case in action against a stationary, heavily shielded target). One of these ships later saw action in "Rules of Engagement", paired with a BoP, and firing the red death ray against a convoy of transports. Again arguably second-rate duties...

    Then again, in "Soldiers of the Empire", one of these ships was operating independently on the border against the Dominion and had to be rescued by Martok's BoP. That doesn't sound like second-rate duties. But Starfleet supposedly used Mirandas on such assignments, including the Tian An Men. Go figure.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I just recall the Klingons being so badass in DS(. Rewatching this episode really let me down. Not because it's dated but the execution of Klingon battle prowess was dulled.

    JJ Abrams is reinventing the Klingons for his second movie. I hate to defer to nuTrek for badass actions and combat of as classic race. Not saying JJ won't do a good job, but it makes DS9's start burn a little less brighter for me.
     
  9. Tosk

    Tosk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We are specifically shown a torpedo POV, it weaves through the battle, passing up multiple other ships in order to hit the target.

    As for ships exploding from one torpedo? The previous impacts were off-screen. ;)
     
  10. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    You might rewatch Star Trek VI.;)
     
  11. Gkar

    Gkar Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I guess it's like comparing the siege of DS9 to that of a castle siege. The characters work there, day in, day out and know their surroundings. The Klingons do not in this case.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The bit that seems to universally annoy us all is the hand-to-hand fight at Ops, though - and there it's difficult to put the blame for the Klingon failures on familiarity vs. unfamiliarity. It's just an open space into which the Klingons beam, to tactically advantageous "high ground" locations with their backs to the walls. They don't even appear to beam into "opposing" locations where they might risk shooting at each other. They should have an excellent field of fire for simply sweeping Ops clean of resistance with wide beams. Or, if disruptors don't cater for those, with rapid fire from multiple barrels.

    Yet of every three Klingons beaming in, only one chooses to fire a ranged weapon. The other two rush into the middle with swords flailing, achieving nothing. Excellent planning and "use of terrain" down to that point, complete fumbling from there on.

    Heck, when the first wave of intruders failed to take over Ops, the second wave should have consisted of photon grenades only!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    As others have already pointed out, the Klingons attacked under the assumption that Starbase Deep Space Nine was poorly armed. When in fact Starfleet had been upgrading it for sometime.
     
  14. commanderkai

    commanderkai Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I've figured that the poor state of the Klingons in the battle was a sign of what Ezri said in season 7. The Klingons talk a great game, but its an empire filled with major problems. Here is a sign of the Klingon empire is stagnated even in a field (martial prowess) they are supposedly great at, considering they couldn't pull off a victory against a space station, even when they were able to beam onto the station itself.
     
  15. Saito S

    Saito S Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A combination of dramatic necessity and writing/production is why the battles themselves seem kind of weird.

    Trek's hand-to-hand is always terrible. Kira getting stabbed and then taking her attacker out provides an excellent visual of the kind of fight choreography that permeates the franchise. So she gets stabbed, but manages to react, yank the blade out, smack the arm that holds it forcing it to drop, and then pummel the guy who was holding it. Right there is the problem: the moment she yanked the knife out, any halfway competant fighter would have attacked her again instantly (in that moment, an elbow to the head would seem to be a good choice). But instead, the Klingon just stands there, letting her attack. It's like a turn-based RPG: he used up his turn trying to stab her, so now he has to wait. Ohh, she got a critical, so he's KOd! Tough luck.

    Trek combat is always like this. Similarly, the space battles - while they to LOOK cool - have very little logic to them (especially when you consider the "range of weapons as stated by dialog vs. as shown by visuals" problem). In my mind, there's no good way to resolve these issues with an all-encompassing, in-universe explanation that doesn't end up boiling down to the entire galaxy being populated by idiots. :rommie:

    But, brushing the out-of-universe inconsistencies aside, to offer a different take on the OP's main question: it wasn't that the Klingons were weaker than they should be, or that the "warrior race" thing is a bunch of hoopla. Rather, the reason they were losing is because the likes of Starfleet and Bajoran military officers are BETTER than the Klingons had thought.

    We didn't overestimate the Klingons' fighting prowess, the Klingons underestimated their opponent's fighting prowess.
     
  16. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it's a rather a budget and rating issue. Staging good fight scenes takes a lot of time and money. Staging realistic knife fights is going to be a mess that would never be allowed to air. They also don't wear any sort of protection against blades and disruptors, going against Klingons twice their size in metal body armor.
     
  17. Saito S

    Saito S Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's a good point; really, many forms of personal combat could potentially get QUITE a bit more bloody and disturbing than we ever see from the majority of TV shows. I don't mind them skipping out on all of THAT. There are war dramas and such that will actually make more of an attempt to really show that kind of realism, but outside of that kind of production, where showing the true results of such violence is part of the point, I don't think it's necessary or desirable.

    Stopping short of that, I've always pegged the lousy Trek fights to, as you say, a lack of resources. Trek's budget has always been fairly limited, and while I would have loved to see fights that were more thoughtfully choreographed and faster paced, but the reality of the production just didn't allow for it.
    True, but I don't think this matters, honestly. I see people point this out often, and it bugs me because nothing the Klingons are wearing does anything either. Nothing that ANYONE wears - Klingon, Cardassian, Jem'Hadar - in combat seems to have any effect whatsoever against either fist, blade, or energy weapon. So it's kind of moot, and the metal-looking bits adorning Klingon uniforms are apparently purely ceremonial.

    Don't misunderstand: I'm not defending this fact as logical. The fact that Klingon "armor", despite it's appearance, apparently does nothing, is itself kind of silly. So I'm not trying to say that it's perfectly ok that no race in the galaxy seems to employ any kind of body armor, I'm just saying it's not fair to single out Starfleet. :lol:
     
  18. Sexy Human

    Sexy Human Lieutenant

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    Please see the thread I created about the lack of realism in star trek being absurd and insulting.

    I am glad Im not the only one who sees how ridiculous it is.

    Dont get me wrong, I was entertained, sure. But its just stupid.
     
  19. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you want realism, you're in the wrong place. Science fiction....

    Really though Human... is there anything about Trek you do like or don't think is stupid? How many flaming threads have you started this past week?
     
  20. Tosk

    Tosk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure everyone sees how ridiculous some of it is. It's not supposed to be a documentary.

    Then the only goal they had was accomplished. :)