Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by SonsofSoong2338, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Data wasn't on the Enterprise either. He was on the Borg planet, and they were in the process of a revolt and would probably have killed Lore themselves if they'd gotten their hands on him.
     
  2. doubleohfive

    doubleohfive Fleet Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure Picard rips Worf to shreds at the end of the episode and tells him "a reprimand will appear on [Worf's] permanent record."

    Granted, it's not a prison sentence or anything, but to say Worf received "no punishment" is inaccurate.

    As for Lore, this was an android who, every time Data encountered him, had proven he was not interested in peaceful co-existence. Lore tried to feed the Enterprise to the Crystalline Entity, he later murdered Dr. Nonnian Soong, and then as others mentioned, led a revolt with the Borg, arguably Starfleet's greatest threat. Putting morality aside for the moment, if you have the option to turn off a crazy-ass killing machine, you take it. Then you talk about what to do about him.
     
  3. Praxius

    Praxius Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nope.... Data and Picard were responsible for re-activating him and unleashing him on the galaxy..... he attempted to kill the entire Enterprise crew, he wiped out an entire colony, both by using the Crystal Entity, he killed his creator/father, he took over Borg for his own personal gains of enslaving organics and conducted tests on borg and humans for his own sick amusement.

    Considering that there's no real known way of restraining an android or keeping them behind a force field ala a prison due to their strength and abilities to use components from their body to manipulate technology to their advantage (thus escape) and he has continually shown that he doesn't give two craps about society, laws, morals, etc..... the only logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him..... which wouldn't be much different from some lunatic attempting to kill a bunch of people or torturing them and the only option was to put a sniper bullet between their eyes since they would never surrender.

    Actually considering they said they only deactivated him and disassembled him, he's not actually dead, since he could always be put back together and turned back on.

    The simplest answer is that you'd never be able to put him on trial or send him off to jail, let alone send him to some penal colony in New Zealand to dig ditches, without him either trying to escape or attempting to kill anybody near him.

    Added:

    The Argument that Data was in the wrong and he violated his rights is a bit weak considering when you break the law, you lose certain rights..... Lore was a mass murderer and there was no way to reason, let alone confine him in any means of punishment that would ensure the security of anybody near him or give justice to his victims.

    It seems a tad screwed up to play Lore as the Victim compared to all the things he did and his very last physical action was to attempt to kill Data.... Data did exactly what was necessary and logical based on the given situation and could be argued his actions were in self defence of not just himself but everyone else.

    Chances are, the logical course of action was to deactivate him and disassemble him for the time being until they know of a way to properly confine him in a safe manner and find a proper punishment for his crimes.
     
  4. Praxius

    Praxius Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Simply put, Lore wasn't a Federation citizen, thus out of their jurisdiction..... he was created by a Fed Citizen, but as another member mentioned, Data was his next of Kin thus legally allowed to decide what happens..... also, as another member mentioned, Soong took him apart and had no intention of him being reactivated in the first place.

    To put it bluntly, Lore was an accident.
     
  5. Tom Riley

    Tom Riley Commodore Commodore

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    Couldn't have said it any better myself.
     
  6. Smellincoffee

    Smellincoffee Commodore Commodore

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    Lore, like Data, possesses superhuman strength and impressive processing speed. Disassembling him might be an effective means of keeping him "in irons" as it were. Maybe if they wanted to maintain his rights, they could keep his head activated so that he was conscious.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or perhaps they did reassemble him to face some sort of hearing/trial at some point. We don't have any evidence either way.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you apply the same principles to Lore that were applied to Data, it's possible he would be considered property and then would be in their jurisdiction.

    I don't think there's any legal grounds establishing Data as Lore's next of kin in any case. Not to say an argument couldn't be made, but we're talking legalities.

    Soong may not have intended for Lore to be active, but I'm not sure that anyone has the right to summarily deactivate him either, provided they don't intend to give him a fair hearing at some point.

    I'm forced to wonder whether people would apply the same arguments if Lore hadn't exhibited anti-social behavior.
     
  9. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Ooh...that is a good point. It's not like Lore was a member of Starfleet or some Federation race. Data very well may have had the final say.
     
  10. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I have to agree. The Federation doesn't have the death penalty and, lets face it, being disassembled indefinitely is the same thing as death. Plus we all have to remember that Lore was INCAPACITATED. Data already had him right where he wanted him, and he chose to shut him down rather than arrest him.
     
  11. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Picard argued in "measure of a man" that there were "other races with super strength..." when Riker tried to use that as a way of showing Data was not a person. So, the idea that it was okay to put him down because he couldn't be imprisoned is not sound. They may have come to the conclusion that the only viable punishment was to disassemble him, but they never even bothered to do that. I'm not saying that Lore is the victim--far from it--but how many other instances in startrek have we seen of a persons rights being held above all else? They love that stuff...accept apparently in this case.
     
  12. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Considering that androids are shown to be conscious creatures, I don't think the difference between assembled and disassembled can be related to sitting and standing. I would rather equate it to alive or dead. A disassembled, non-functioning android is as good as dead. We should all consider this....If Lore had been a human being, Data would never have done what he did to him. End of story.
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes it does. Talos IV.

    No, because disassembly can be followed by re-assembly. If Lore had been vaporized by a phaser, then that would be death. But he was taken apart, nothing more; thus he could theoretically be put back together again.

    But as I said, Lore was dangerous. An immediate menace. Disassembling him was, in effect, self defense. They could not take the chance that Lore would escape again. Keeping him disassembled serves the greater good.
     
  14. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    My thoughts precisely. Thank you=). We can still love a character even if they are flawed, and Data wasn't perfect.
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If a Federation prison could possibly hold Lore, then you might have a case. But I think we all know by now that Lore could escape from pretty much any prison. There aren't many sentient beings out there with the strength, speed and intelligence to match Lore or Data. If they go rogue, extreme measures will always be necessary.

    And like I said, Lore can be put back together again. He is not dead, just 'sleeping'.
     
  16. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I think everyone has made a lot of really good points to answer my question. One thing about the Federation I think we can all agree on is that its pretty ambiguous. Sometimes it's like Starfleet can do whatever it wants, then suddenly their "hands are tied."

    I'm not arguing that Lore shouldn't have been disassembled. I'm arguing that he was disassembled without a fair trial. They should have at least done it just to keep their legal code sound. After all, it's not like he would have been found innocent! Even in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt, a person should still get a trial...even if it is only 10 minutes. The crazy thing was that Data was setting a very bad precedent that might one day have been applied to him.....unilateral disassembly.
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I seem to remember a certain art collector that Data was attempting to "deactivate."

    In disassembling Lore, Data (and the Federation) were simply returning him to the state in which he was found.

    :)
     
  18. Tom Riley

    Tom Riley Commodore Commodore

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    As someone did previously point out here, we have no idea what happened to Lore after the episode was over. He could have been deactivated and disassembled pending an official hearing by the Federation Council or something like that, they never said what was to happen or even if the disassembly was permanent.
     
  19. Praxius

    Praxius Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But then if Data wasn't the property of Starfleet, then neither was Lore.

    Considering the topic is about Lore's rights and what was legal and illegal (as noted in the topic header) of course we're talking legalities.... they're relevant to the debate.

    And how do you propose they give him a fair hearing without risking the lives of everyone around him and having the very probable chance of him escaping?

    Anti-Social?

    I think he was a bit more extreme then that..... if he didn't wipe out an entire colony, if he didn't attempt to kill the entire Enterprise crew, if he didn't murder his father, if he didn't attempt to manipulate and control the Borg, if he didn't conduct brutal experiments on them, if he didn't violate Data's freedom and his mind by controlling him with the emotion chip, if he didn't abduct Picard and the Enterprise crew, if he didn't conduct more brutal experiments on his crew ala Geordi...... I doubt anybody would see justification for deactivating him in the first place and we wouldn't be having this discussion.



    I sum it up as Data, with his millions of calculations a second brain, already thought of all the alternatives, probably concluded there was no logical way of restraining him properly, no logical way of punishing him, processed all the laws, all the means of dealing with him through normal practices, and his final conclusion was the only one.

    And as another mentioned, while Data and other Androids have earned certain rights within the Federation, They are not Human and they are not from Earth, thus Human/Earth laws do not exactly apply..... he was the first of his culture, and therefore the only logical choice for determining what is done within his own society/culture towards those who commit serious crimes such as what Lore did.

    Besides, while the Federation has dealt with other alien species that possess considerable strength, this situation is similar to how one tries to arrest, restrain and punish a Q.

    In other words, it's not easily done..... until one figures out how.... deactivate him.

    Added:

    Let's also not forget that Lore not only escaped drifting in space, he also had his own personal teleportation device in his body, and who knows what other modifications he made to his body..... trying to hold him for any extended period of time against his will would have been futile, short of deactivating him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  20. Start Wreck

    Start Wreck Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That doesn't follow. Data, specifically, was deemed by a Starfleet hearing to not be property. Lore was not.
    The rights extended to Data on that occasion do not automatically pass on to other androids or computer systems.

    However, I would like to think that he got a fair trial at some point. I'd also strongly argue that he is not unimprisonable (is that word?), just because he's clever/strong/fast. He's just as physically capable as Data, who had been previously imprisoned by a mere collector with a forcefield and strong door. Lore would have no chance of escape up against Starfleet's finest prisons, and that's even assuming they gave him his body.
     

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