Was What Happened to Lore legal? Opinions, please!

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by SonsofSoong2338, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Here is an interesting scenario to ponder....In the episode "measure of a man", Picard and Data go all out to defend the idea that an android has rights and ought to be treated like any human with regards to the law. If that is so, then how do we explain what happened to Lore?

    Lore committed heinous crimes and was captured by Data. He was incapacited, and instead of arresting him and putting him on trial for his multiple counts of conspiracy and murder, the Enterprise crew just deactivate him and, presumably, disassemble him. Is this a terrible example of hypocrisy on the part of Picard and Data? Are androids only people so long as they are good?
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You said it youself, they -presumably- disassemble him.

    It's just as presumable that they reactivated him and he was found criminally insane and locked away in a dark hole somewhere.
     
  3. SonsofSoong2338

    SonsofSoong2338 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I don't know. I think my "presumption" is a lot more likely than yours. Anyway, this is a philosophical question about legal rights.
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Assuming Data did unilaterally disassemble Lore, then sure, I'd be willing to make the argument that Lore's rights were violated. Though I seem to recall that the ruling in Data's case applied explicitly to him, not necessarily all Soong-type androids. Consequently it's possible Lore wouldn't be explicitly entitled to the same rights. Which is a cheap legal stunt, but that's how the system works.
     
  5. od0_ital

    od0_ital Admiral Admiral

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    In 'Birthright, Part One', Picard told Data that he was a culture of one. While not quite true - B4, Lore, Julianna Tainer, Lal were also a part of the culture created by Soong - its close enough.

    And since the Federation respects each culture's laws & customs, when Data passed judgment on the only other known member of the culture, it was legal.
     
  6. doubleohfive

    doubleohfive Fleet Admiral

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    Here's another question to ponder -- after Data (presumably) disassembles Lore, where did Lore go? Did Data keep his parts in storage on the Enterprise-D, and if so, did Lore's parts survive the crash in Generations?
     
  7. Marten

    Marten Captain Captain

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    Perhaps they were scared that he might escape. Not really just in i nation of laws, but it would make sense.
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Why would the law have something to say about Lore's disassembly? Shouldn't what happens to Lore's body be his business, and only his?

    If Lore agreed to being disassembled, legal concerns probably wouldn't arise. For a Soongian android, the difference between assembled and disassembled approximates the difference between standing and seated for a human. Except that a human might find it uncomfortable or even dangerous to remain seated for years at an end, while an android would be only minimally inconvenienced.

    Essentially, it's a case of two people (androids) having a heated difference of opinion (killing a few people and destroying property left and right), and one tells the other to "Sit DOWN!" ("Let me disassemble you for the greater good, brother"), to which the other grudgingly agrees. No court would prosecute that as a case of illegal threat or depriving of freedom or whatnot.

    Besides, Starfleet seems to be the only law-enforcing entity anywhere in the UFP. And Starfleet officers have frequently demonstrated their mandate for killing wrongdoers. Merely putting one on indefinite hold should not raise eyebrows, even on Vulcan...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Takeru

    Takeru Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And who gave Data the right to decide what his cultures laws and customs were? Lore's opinion should count as much as Data's if not more, considering the fact that he was built first and established Soong android culture long before Data was activated for the first time.

    What Data did was wrong, plain and simple. He fought for his rights to not be treated like a thing and then he deactivates Lore just like that ... what a load of crap. Yes, Lore was dangerous and he could have escaped had they just put him in a cell ... so what? If you lock a criminal up there's always the chance he or she will escape, but I don't see the federation putting people into stasis indefinitely or outright killing them, they send their criminals to an extended vacation in New Zealand instead.
     
  10. Leathco

    Leathco Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yea, and I've always thought Lore got screwed over. Put him on trial, and punish him, but don't disassemble him to some android purgatory. If nothing else give him the Khan treatment.
     
  11. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    Data chooses to withhold Juliana's true identity from her. Data chooses to construct Lal, & reassemble Lore & B4. He chooses to deactivate Lore. He chooses to sacrifice his own life. Sounds to me like Data is the king of the Android culture

    It's an empire. Data won it. Therefore Data makes the policies. That's how empire's work, & clearly a violation of the prime directive to place upon them human or Federation standards or rules. Not for them to interfere in those internal affairs
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  12. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...Admittedly, Data is also a UFP citizen and a Starfleet officer.

    But UFP citizens have significant leeway, often out of cultural reasons: the UFP culture isn't monobloc, and seems to subject different people to different legal obligations and limitations.

    And Starfleet officers have even greater leeway, frequently deciding on issues of life and death without consulting their superiors or peers or referring to precedent.

    All in all, it would be highly atypical for any of our heroes to hesitate in applying justice or other problem-solving methods on enemies of the UFP, or even on their personal enemies. Apparently, the right for extended self-defense is the only one that applies universally to all UFP species and citizens...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except that a human sitting down can -choose- to stand up. A disassembled android has had that choice taken away, provided they're not being reassembled and asked their opinion at regular intervals.
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Lore was clearly extremely dangerous. Why shouldn't he be disassembled?
     
  15. zar

    zar Captain Captain

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    You're forgetting the real leader of the Soong society... Dr. Soong. Lore was a mistake, and Soong didn't want him to be active.
     
  16. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lore was deactivated and disassembled. They'd found him like that as well. Data didn't say 'disassembled to his component parts,' just disassembled. It could just be that he intended to have Lore kept offline until someone else understood positronic brains and would be able to help to make him more sane (whether that would even be possible, your guess is as good as mine).

    Either way, though, IF Data did 'kill' Lore, I believe the Federation would accept it, and not just for reasons of 'Data's the only android we've declared sentient.' Remember Worf killed Duras under Klingon law and received no punishment for the deed. I believe that Data would have similar protection under Federation law, even if he had no personal laws for his 'species' - when you're a species of one, you don't really make laws, just personal judgment calls. Not to mention, he IS Lore's next of kin, so he'd be the only one in a position to complain about Lore's treatment in the first place.

    One of the TNG novels, 'Immortal Coil,' said that Data kept the 'bodies' of Lore, Lal, and a few prototypes he'd discovered in a sort of 'family plot' in one of the Enterprise science labs, and that they'd survived the crash of the D and were moved to the E. I don't know if any other novel has worked with this fact, or what would have happened to it after his death, though.
     
  17. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    Considering Lore went all "Lex Luthor" and decided to try and start a program to take over the Federation with his own group of Borg I'm guessing a "death penalty" carried out on-site by ranking SF officer wouldn't be thought over too much.
     
  18. Takeru

    Takeru Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But only because he did it on a klingon ship and the klingons were fine with it, had he killed Duras on the Enterprise it would have been murder, klingon laws wouldn't have applied.
     
  19. Delta1

    Delta1 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Didn't the Federation do away with the death penalty in Kirk's time? If I remember correctly, it only existed for travelling to Talos IV, and then only upon sentencing by a court martial. I cannot believe this same Federation would look kindly on the anti-Lex Luthor argument for extrajudicial execution. (It is noteworthy that no one ever tried that on Luthor, either.)

    Nor can I believe that Data has been given free reign to abrogate the rights of any other Soong-type androids as some kind of "Soongian emperor." Unless he has been recognized as the sovereign of a state by the Federation, he has no more legal right to commit violence against any other Soong-type android than I do.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I tend to agree with this.

    Also "Nobody's complaining" would seem like a weak reason not to investigate a potential crime.