Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by CharlieZardoz, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    This is the point where the details matter and become crucial.

    "Constitution Class" popped up in the script for "Space Seed" (and apparently along with the primary phaser schematic) belonging to one of the starship manuals Khan had been studying, when McGivers stepped in.

    The schematic had a comeback in "The Trouble With Tribbles" on a monitor display in the recreation room but not as a part of a starship manual but as a part of a technical journal.

    While this has been the essential and decisive source for the assumption that the Enterprise is a CCS (Constitution Class Starship), it is obviously entirely conjectural.

    Bob
     
  2. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    Ferguson, Missouri, USA
    Except when she was referred to as such twice during TNG:
    "The Naked Now" and in "Relics."

    Whether she was referred to as such during TOS is kinda of a moot point, IMO.
     
  3. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2005
    The only time that star fleet starship class was mention. Was in the Doomsday Machine script. It mention that the Constellation was similar to the Enterprise and was was the namesake of the class and she was a Constellation class starship. You should know that the real USS. Constellation nickname is Connie.
    http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/35.htm
    http://www.ussconstellation.org/
     
  4. Workbee

    Workbee Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    This appears to be a transcript rather than a script. Do you know the source of this information? Particularly any of the non-dialogue annotations?
     
  5. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Incorrect. The reference in "The Naked Now" is only to the "Starship Enterprise" of James T. Kirk.

    Since I do not consider contradicting retcon BS as relevant, it's "Relics" that requires imaginative rationalizations, not what the creators intended and had established up to ST VI and "Relics".

    @ yenny

    :luvlove: YES, I do know very well that "Connie" is a nickname for the real USS Constellation (and the plane Gene Roddenberry had piloted!), that's what I'm permanently trying to tell my fellow BBS mates, but they just won't listen.

    Bob
     
  6. Manticore

    Manticore Manticore, A moment ago Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Location:
    Austin, but not Austin
    Not having seen Relics in over 20 years (I should correct that at some point), what rationalizations are required there?
     
  7. Avro Arrow

    Avro Arrow Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Location:
    The Bottom of Lake Ontario
    Well, unless the Connie in the Museum wasn't one of the "original twelve". (Assuming that's an exact quote?) But honestly, I never put much stock in the "Enterprise is the only one who survived" theory. It's bad enough we saw so many of the class destroyed on-screen, since the show only used the one Starfleet design. If their failure rate was really 92%, I doubt the characters would speak of them in such glowing terms...
     
  8. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    Ferguson, Missouri, USA
    Which is the Starship Enterprise of TOS, so it's correct.
    Doesn't matter since it's only retconning things that never made it to screen. It's the end onscreen result that counts. Always has been.

    You can try to deny onscreen material if you want, but for everyone else, the USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, was a Constitution-class starship from the day she was launched to the day she fell over the Genesis planet.
     
  9. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Please don´t speak for everyone else ;) I for one don´t think, the TOS-Enterprise has to be a Constitution class vessel. Since you (quite correctly) point out the importance of "onscreen material" you should conclude that the Enterprise was a Starship class vessel "from the day she was launched to the day she fell over the Genesis planet", because that is onscreen canon (dedication plaque of the Enterprise during TOS).
    When Scotty looks at that schematic in TUC, we´re on a new ship, NCC-1701-A, that apparently is a Constitution class ship.

    Mario
     
  10. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    It's been a while since I saw such an example of circular logic. :rolleyes:

    The dialogue in "The Naked Now" doesn't refer to the TOS Enterprise as a member of the Constitution Class nor does the TNG monitor display (before Kirk era "expert" Mike Okuda got another chance to mess with continuity).

    And how much continuity thought went into "Relics" was already revealed before Scotty entered the holodeck.

    "Show me the bridge of the Enterprise" "There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify!" "NCC-1701"

    So why didn't we see this bridge?!? :rofl:

    @ Mario de Monti

    The logic of your argument is inescapable. And I've seen a lot of BBS members in various threads that do not belong to the "everyones" and insist on "Starship Class". As a Bob Justman groupie I think he did mean "Enterprise Starship Class" but "Starship Class" it is - beyond doubt.

    Bob
     
  11. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Or this one?

    And why did the computer assume, Scotty wanted to see the bridge of a Federation Starship in the first place? There were other Enterprises, that were no Starships but had command bridges as well :rolleyes:
     
  12. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    IIRC, the onscreen evidence for the class of the TOS/Movie Enterprises are:

    "Starship Class" plaque that was on the TOS Enterprise bridge for Seasons 1-3.
    "Enterprise Class" training simulator bridge in TWOK for the TWOK Enterprise.
    "Heavy Cruiser" type of TOS Enterprise line drawing seen on bridge in TSFS.
    "Constitution Class" schematic Scotty was looking at in TUC for the TUC Enterprise-A.

    "Constitution Class Enterprise, Captain James T Kirk commanding" from "The Naked Now" showed the movie version Enterprise line drawing. I understand that in the new FX version of TNG they replaced it with a TOS Enterprise drawing.
    "Constitution Class" from "Relics" used to describe the bridge simulation. Dedication plaque unreadable.
    Edit: "This was the first Enterprise. Constitution class." from "Trials and Tribbleations".

    So at the time of TOS, she was a "Starship Class".

    Then when rebuilt in TMP, she's her own "Enterprise Class".

    And when replaced with a new/different ship, that ship came from the "Constitution Class". Her final disposition would be then "Constitution Class".

    The characters in the future could then only refer to the last version which is the "Constitution Class" Enterprise-A under Captain James T. Kirk. To keep it simple they don't dive in and comment that for a while Kirk was an Admiral and the Enterprise was her own "Enterprise Class" and "Starship Class". It is possible that "Starship Class" and "Enterprise Class were sub-classes of the "Constitution Class". IMHO.
     
  13. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Heidelberg, Germany
    I find it more likely, that "Enterprise class" and "Constitution class" are both sub-classes of the "Starship class". Enterprise and Constitution both are specific vessels that are the first of a type/class and thus give their names to that class. "Starship" OTOH is probably just a designation for vessels/classes that have certain characteristics (e.g. capable of high speeds and long journeys, thus able to travel between the stars), so "Starship" should be at the top level regarding vessel classifications. I assume we can agree there´s no USS Starship ;)

    Mario
     
  14. B.J.

    B.J. Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2004
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    I know that all too well too (being an aerospace engineer and a bit of a space/aviation nut), but I also know that language evolves, and certain words can mean one thing to one group of people but something else to another. If I'm at the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh and someone mentions a "Connie", I know they're talking about the Lockheed Constellation. If I hear a Navy commander talk about *THE* Connie, he's referring to the USS Constellation. However, for the vast majority of Trekkies, "Connie" refers to the Constitution class, and I have no problem making the distinction or understanding that whatsoever.

    And no, we are listening, we just disagree. :p
     
  15. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    ...would logically have to refer to the USS Constellation (NCC-1017) :p

    Yes, there was this school of thought in the early 1970's and IIRC in some of the Blish adaptations. Looks like we could have a BBS poll with multiple choice selections.

    In general I find it outrageuosly weird or nerdy that there is talk about the Enterprise but a nickname is used that has absolutely nothing to do with it. At least "Enty", "Aunty" or "Ente" (German word for duck) would sound somewhat appropriate, IMHO. Or a cool sounding acronym like CCS (Constitution Class Starship), not too dissimilar from CVN (Cruiser Voler Nuclear).

    And just imagine the reaction of aviatic buffs like Roddenberry and Jefferies if any fan would have ever told them "Guys, I really love your Connie design": :rofl:

    There is a country where they actually say "handy" for cell phone and "beamer" for a video front projector. If your reaction is the same as the one you'd get from Roddenberry and Jefferies for "Connie", I hope I've illustrated the issue.

    Bob
     
  16. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2005
    http://www.chakoteya.net/ That is the site that I've got it from. But they only have transcripts.
     
  17. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2005
    Starship class doesn't means first ship of it class. Class itself means type in this case.

    Gene himself did the same thing with the Yorktown. He call the Yorktown a cruiser class.

    http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_Trek/1_Original_Series/Star_Trek_Pitch.pdf

    If you go look at any ships plaque? They most of the time don't mention the ship class, only it type. But sometimes they don't even do that.
     
  18. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I hope you don't mind, blssdwlf, if I modify your synopsis slightly.

    I think this is a pretty accurate breakdown of the facts as aired.

    (I can't recall if Icheb mentioned the ship by class in "Q2" on Voyager, but I doubt it.)

    To re-state, based on aired evidence:

    • If we consider only TOS, the original is Starship Class.*
    • If we consider TOS and the movies, she's Enterprise class, at least after she's refit... the A is then a Constitution (refit).
    • If we consider TNG and DS9, she was Constitution class in her original form, too. "Starship class" means something else, or is an error and should be ignored.
    *I still think Bob's rationalization that "Starship Class" means "class of this starship's name" makes a degree of sense. Then, the only alteration would be that the Enterprise was the only member of her class all along, with other ships being Constitution class, including the Enterprise-A. It also fits nicely with the real-world CVN-65 Enterprise being a unique member of her own class which also happens to look (to a layman) a lot like another couple classes of aircraft carrier. ;)

    Then again, Scotty might've taken umbrage at Picard's "Constitution Class" remark if the original Enterprise was distinguished as a member of her own class... or he might have just been amused at the Captain's misunderstanding. Of course, he was drunk.
     
  19. B.J.

    B.J. Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2004
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    No. I've given my reasons, and logic has nothing to do with it. Rarely is there any logic in how language evolves, or how nicknames are used. And don't ever cut off my words like that again.

    Just remember, you're talking with other "aviatic buffs" here as well, like me. And I still disagree.
     
  20. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    Ferguson, Missouri, USA
    I'm not, I'm just stating a fact.
    :)

    It's been called a Constitution-class starship onscreen more than once. Seems like everyone else accepted it.
    There's nothing circular about it. :p

    The only way to claim that the Enterprise isn't a Constitution-class starship is to ignore onscreen material that says she is and replace it with personal conjecture based on ignoring canon.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013

Share This Page