Was Sisko a Javert

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    Eddington's switching sides wasn't particularly horrific either. He had no vendetta against Sisko and did what he did to support a cause he thought was right. The guy stole some replicators, which i'm sure the Federation would have easily replaced. Whilst Eddington also betrayed his oath and uniform That was never Sisko's motivation for going after him.

    I know that no one died but whether people were killed is irrelevant to the point i'm trying to make. Sisko turned into a raving lunatic who poisoned a planet putting innocent lives at risk and initially displacing hundreds possibly thousands of people. He did this not because Eddington was a Maquis, but because Eddington bruised his ego and made him look like a fool.
     
  2. Tuvok

    Tuvok Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    He betrayed Sisko trust, that was bad enough.

    A commanding officer believes he should trust the man under his command.

    And Eddington did betray his Uniform. He did it by stealing from the Federation, he did it by attacking Federation ships, he did it the moment he used Biogenic warheads on a planet full of civilians and then crippled escaping Civilians fleeing from his unprovoked attack.

    Which is a major difference.

    These Cardarssian Colonist where the innocent party here. They took no part in what happened to the Marquis. They where just living their life when the Marquis attacked.

    But hey , is Ok right. The Marquis are the underdogs, the good guys. So what if Cardarssian lives where uprooted and could have ended up dead. The Marquis are the true victims, they where betrayed by the Federation so it makes their act of Terrorism on a civilian Target all ok.

    Because they where Cardies after all.

    At least Sisko gave the Marquis a heads up.

    As for Sisko turning into a raving loonie, he didn't really turn into one. He acted as he always has , what ever needs doing he did. But hey if Eddington wanted to play the gloating, holier then thou Rebel for a cause. Then to protect the peace Sisko was more then happy to play the villain .

    :mallory:
     
  3. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The problem is they never made the Maquis "bad" enough for the fans to understand the obsession with hunting them down.

    They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC. Show them doing something downright evil would make it understandable, but for the most part it was self defense.

    For the most part I think the fans think the Maquis were more foolish than evil because they choose to stay on planets they were previously warned were in dangerous dispute.

    TOS, TNG made a point of saying the Fed is super prosperous. Colonization is shown mainly as a challenge not a necessity.

    So I don't always understand the Maquis.
     
  4. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    IRC the people on the colony that Sisko attacked, were not part of Eddington's attack on the cardassians. That makes them just as innocent as the cardassians.

    At no point did i say that Eddington was was right for what he did. Nor did i say that the Maquis were helpless victims. I'm not defending Eddington or the Maquis. I'm stating my point of view that Sisko's vendetta against Eddington, had nothing to do with his stealing federation supplies or attacking cardassians colonies. It came from the fact that Eddington outwitted him and played him for a fool.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  5. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's not true, the Maquis actions had the potential to reignite the war between the Cardassians and the Federation.

    :devil:
     
  6. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They attacked the USS Malinche. True, they didn't destroy it, but they still attacked it.

    And T'Unspeakable is absolutely correct: the Maquis were poised to reignite the Federation/Cardassian war. Their actions were a direct threat to a very fragile peace.
     
  7. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    True, but the problem is in episodes like Pre Emptive Strike, they showed things like Cardassians sneaking into a human colony and then opening fire and killing innocent civilians.

    Showing the Maquis in a sympathetic light like that, and then later branding them as villains that Starfleet and Sisko are obsessed with hunting down seems odd looking.


    So it's not a surprise if some fans don't see the Maquis as villains. It's almost as if the show had to make the Maquis characters seem almost immoral, in order to justify the heroes of the show going after them.
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They attacked the Malinche? Oh you mean that ship that was sent to hunt them down. How dastardly they defended themselves.

    Certainly it was the Maquis who were threatening the peace and not the actions of the Cardassians. They would never do anything like forcing a war that draws every major power in the quadrant into it.
     
  9. Tuvok

    Tuvok Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yes, the ship hunting down renegade Federation colonist using stolen Federation tech to cause raids in Cardassian occupied space. You know, space now belonging to Cardassians.

    So yeah, they get hunted down for that. They get hunted down for nearly starting a war .

    Where they oppressed, yup. Where they wronged, yup.

    But they had options.

    They could have moved. They could have , but they chose not to. They chose to fight for their home.

    Is it noble, yup . But what did they expect, they knew what the Cardassian military where like. They where told the space belonged to Cardassia , and they stayed.

    So feeling abandoned ( which they where ) they fought. And nearly started a war. And stole from the Federation , and attacked other Cardassian colonists.

    You can't point the finger at the Cardarsian Military because it was their space as per the treaty. The actions taken by the disgruntled colonist and the Federation officers that flocked to their banner reflected on the Federation. So yeah ,they came after them.

    They came after them to keep the peace. They came after them for threatening a treaty, for stealing Federation supplies. They came after them.

    Was it fair, no . But in Ds9 we where showed in reality the Federation is flawed, to keep the peace they screwed the colonist over.

    As for Sisko tactics, if the Marquis hadn't given him the idea then they don't get to bitch about it. As for Sisko obsession with Edington, well we all got flaws. Sisko does not take betrayal well, and Edington belives his cause is just and above reproach. The Marquis are determined to fight a battle that need not be fought and the Federation buys into its own Utopian viewpoint.
     
  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Starfleet had every right to send the Malinche after the Maquis. It was the Malinche's mission, written and carried out under the law. That's what a lot of people seem to be forgetting here.

    To say that the Maquis were defending themselves against the Malinche (which is a non-starter on the face of it, since the Malinche's mission was not to destroy the Maquis, just capture them) is the moral equivalent of saying that a criminal has the "right" to defend himself against the police pursuing him. They are effectively the same, really: The Maquis are criminals, and the Federation is the law. That's the end of it, really.

    You don't like the Federation? You don't like the treaty they signed? Fine. There are options. Work within the system. BE the system. Do not become terrorists. No one has the right to do that.

    And here's another example: The Fugitive. A lot of people thought - correctly, as it turned out - that Richard Kimble was unjustly accused and that Inspector Gerard had no right to pursue him. But as Gerard himself pointed out, it is not his job to decide Kimble's guilt or innocence. Gerard is a police detective sent to hunt down and capture an escaped convict. Kimble may later argue his innocence in court, but he did not have the right to run from Gerard. That's a matter for the legal system to decide. SAME STORY HERE. Federation = Gerard; Maquis = Kimble. End of story.
     
  11. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    It's not as black and white as the maquis being criminals and the federation being the law

    I think it's easy to say to work within the system and be the system when it's not your home being taken away from you. The Maquis felt that the system had let them down, they didn't like the options being presented to them which i think came down to move or be subjected to cardassian rule.

    By handing over the colonies to the cardassians and then expecting thousands of people to move, the Federation showed how arrogant it was and a complete disregard for it's own citizens.

    Considering what the Cardassians were doing to the colonists when the Federation wasn't looking, and the fact that they couldn't rely on the federation to come to their aid, the colonists had no choice and every right to defend themselves.

    The Federation failed their own people for a peace treaty the Cardassians never respected unless it was in their interest to do so.

    The irony is that ultimately the maquis were proven right about the cardassians when they joined the dominion and caused one of the most destructive wars the alpha quadrant had ever seen
     
  12. Tuvok

    Tuvok Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    It doesn't matter if the Marquis where right about the Cardassians, everyone knew what the Cardassian military where like, they knew they where brutal and ruthless.

    They had the option to move.

    They did not.

    They had the option not to steal supplies from the Federation.

    They did.

    They had the option not to attack Cardassian colonies, defenceless colonies like they had been when the Cardassian Military attacked them.

    But they did.

    They had the option not to use biogenetic warheads on a civilian population .

    But they did.

    The Marquis where wronged, now doubt about that. But they became criminals the moment they decide to steal from the Federation, attack civilian populations and almost plunge the Federation into another war.

    When the property you live in suddenly belongs to the violent, territorial group of louts. And your given the option to move. Then move, don't act surprise the louts show up to beat the crap out of you.

    It's not a matter about the Marquis being right about the Cardassians being untrustworthy bullies, everyone knows this. Hell Cardassians know this. This is preventing another war, this is about breaking Federation law using Federation supplies and officers.
     
  13. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    Why should they have to move from their homes? Why should they have to give in to ruthless bullies? Should The Bajorans have had to do this when the cardassians came for them?

    The Maquis had to steal from the Federation because the Cardassian military despite pledging to leave the colonists alone began to do things like poison food replicators.

    Cardassian colonists were not defenseless they had weapons secretly provided to them by the cardassian military. These weapons included shuttles, some of which had been armed with galor class disruptors. These shuttles were used to attack federation colonies.

    How did the Federation respond? By doing nothing and treating a hostile, untrustworthy alien race better than it's own citizens

    Why should you respect the laws of a governing body that does nothing to protect you?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  14. Tuvok

    Tuvok Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Which Cardassian Colonists had weapons ? Cause the Cardassian colonists fleeing a world where the Holier then thou Marquis just bio nuked seemed pretty defenceless.

    And what did the Marquis expect to happen. While I have some sympathy for them I understand that they could have moved but did not. If you lie next to a rattlesnake don't be surprise it bit you and blame the guy who left your bedspread there.

    As for respecting the laws, fine break their laws. But don't be surprised when they react to it. A robber does not respect the law doesn't mean he should be offended when he gets arrested.

    They could have moved.

    They did not.

    Defending a home , in a place which was no longer theirs.

    Cause and effect.
     
  15. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    check out the episodes 'The Maquis pt 1 & 2' or have a look at the memory alpha entry. The Cardassian military secretly supplying their colonies was one of the reasons the Maquis was formed.

    The decision was made for them by The Federation. The colonists had no part on the decision making process. Which to me goes against the very values the Federation was founded on. The reason the colonists didn't want to move was because they had built lives, families and loved their homes. Why should people have to give up their homes and be prevented from living on a planet that they have built a life on because the government tells them to?

    The Maquis are not that different to the Bajoran resistance. According to the Cardassians, Bajor no longer belonged to the Bajorans but the Bajoran people still defended it. Are the Bajorans criminals as well for their actions?
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why should the Maquis move? Very simple answer: It's the Federation. It's the FUTURE. There is a near-infinite amount of living space available. The Federation was perfectly willing to HELP them move. Given this, there is no logical excuse for staying.

    I mean, if they were going to knock my house down (which I have lived in for 15 years) to build a highway or something, but they said to me "Look, we've got another home all ready for you to move in, a mile away," HELL YEAH I'd move! There's a difference between "defending your home" and "being a stubborn jackass."

    Not true. It was the colonists' idea to stay there in the first place. Watch the TNG episode which introduced them (Journey's End).
     
  17. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    Actually it is true, the Federation signed the treaty despite the protests of the colonists. That to me shows that the Federation didn't listen to the wants or needs of it's own people.

    Of course the various reasons for the colonists wanting to stay aren't logical, they're emotional. Emotional reasons are just as valid as logical reasons.

    It's great that you would be happy to move from your home if you were asked, but we aren't talking about you. The people we are talking about didn't want to and should'nt have had to move.

    These two qoutes pretty much some up my views on the subject

    "On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window at Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise. But the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there, in the Demilitarized Zone, all problems have not been solved yet. There are no saints, just people; angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with the Federation approval or not." - Commander Sisko

    'I know you. I was like you once. But then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day, they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it.' - Michael Eddington to Captain Sisko
     
  18. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    On the contrary, the Federation was taking into account its ENTIRE POPULATION when considering the treaty. The needs of the many vs. the needs of the few, and all that.

    And Eddington is full of shit, because worlds can and do leave the Federation and nobody went to war over it. And he's got some damn nerve comparing the Federation to the Borg, because the Federation never forces any worlds to join if they don't want to. Argument invalid.
     
  19. mickmike

    mickmike Commander Red Shirt

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    yeah you're right the Federation was probably thinking about vulcan, andor, tellar and all of their more important colonies and gave these ones up because they were dispensable border worlds. But they were not dispensible to the people who lived on them and were happy living on them. They were in danger of losing their homes for a treaty the Cardassians never respected.

    You may think Eddington is full of shit but i think he has a point. The Federation is constantly wandering around telling different alien cultures how they should live. The Federation has a massive superiority complex. I think his point about the Federation being pissed at The Maquis for rejecting paradise is on the money.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  20. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually TOS made no such claim and in fact when this came up in another thread, it was pointed out how often a stable colony was hard to have since either the planet tried to kill the colonists with dangerous animals, plants, plagues, and ect. or some weird radiation, hostile race, or pedo alien would come along and kill everyone. Not to mention pre-warp civilizations and other powers putting a limit on what planets can be colonized.

    Not to mention the Project Genesis proposal tape flat out saying over population was something the Federation was worried about.

    Are we still subscribing to the myth that the federation should have been concerned with a war against a race that according to Jellico a Galaxy-class could take 18 of their warships AT THE SAME TIME and was about as effective against Maxwell and the Phoenix as the JDSF in a Godzilla movie.

    I mean for pete's sake they got their asses kicked when they had the Phoenix's prefix code and could lower the shields.