Was Sisko a Javert

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would have liked to see a colony formed by folks who had done time for the plot in the Undiscovered country, some essentialists, genetically modified folks, etc.--all joining the Maquis.
     
  2. Navaros

    Navaros Commodore Commodore

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    Javert is committed to justice at all costs. As such, he would love Odo (that is, up until the writers assassinated the integrity of Odo's character in S7 by having him refuse to cure the Founders of their genocide disease [the only just course of action; one that Odo's sense of justice would compel him to take, if the character's integrity remained intact] just because Sisko told him not to).

    I'm not sure why you say Javert wouldn't like Dax or Kira serving under him. Unless you mean because Dax is a hypocrite for having the gall to disparage Victor Hugo's women characters for being one-dimensional, when she herself is one of the most one-dimensional, uninteresting and worst woman characters ever written. Javert surely would not tolerate hypocrites serving under him, but that is a good thing.

    Sisko forgiving Cassidy, and the other Maquis traitor/SF Captain, just goes to show that Sisko, too, is a hypocrite; it does not show that Sisko is better than Javert. I suspect that Sisko forgave them because they are black, yet could not forgive Eddington because he is white.

    On the contrary, Javert is not a hypocrite, and does not apply standards of justice selectively, as does Sisko.

    Furthermore, I highly doubt Javert would poison planets and/or otherwise kill/harm innocents to get his way, yet for Sisko, that is no problem.

    So to answer the question,"Was Sisko a Javert?" No, Sisko is worse than a Javert: Javert is a much better person, albeit a bit misguided; Sisko, however, is a full-fledged monster [one might also recall Sisko's pretty-much-rape of Mirror Dax].

    Sisko has all of Javert's bad qualities, such as obsessing over a minor theft, yet Sisko has none of Javert's good qualities, such as a consistent standard of justice and a commitment to behave personally in a moral way.
     
  3. Tuvok

    Tuvok Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    A minor theft ?

    Attacking a Federation starship ?

    Attacking a fleeing Cardassian transport from a planet the ' heroic' Marquis poisoined.'

    Eddington was only a hero in his own mind.

    What the hell did the Marquis think was going to happen. Did the honestly expect that they where the only ones willing to play hard ball.

    I get it. The Federation failed you, but they chose to stay behind in Cardassian controlled space. Space is big, findsomewhere else. The price of peace was compromise and guess what they got screwed over it.

    Let's not forgot the Marquis used Bio Weapons first, but hey they used it on a defenceless Cardie planet so that makes it ok. It's not like Cardie's have kids or babies do they?

    Beside's they're Cardie's and where the holier then thou, under dog Marquis so that makes it ok.

    If don't want to get burned, don't start tossing fire about.

    And if your willing to use terrorist tactics, don't bitch when someone uses it back.

    The Federation is flawed, the Federation considers its image as a Utopia important. But Sisko is no Picard, he doesn't represent the ideal. He represents the reality .

    In reality , if your willing to wear Grey hats and call yourself the hero . Then get ready for the guy willing t wear a darker hat and give you a taste of your own medicine.

    :techman:
     
  4. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ And the thing is, the Federation didn't "fail" the Maquis. It was those colonists' idea to stay in the DMZ in the first place! They knew exactly what the treaty contained and what they would be doing, living under Cardassian rule. Unfortunately, the Cardassians with whom they directly negotiated TO live under their rule (Gul Evek) were less nasty than the ones who shipped weapons to the DMZ, but that's another matter - there's no way that's the Federation's fault. If anybody failed the Maquis, it was the Cardassians, not the Federation. The Federation honored the agreement; the Cardassians did not.

    In any case, stirring up trouble in the DMZ would only lead to war with Cardassia, which apparently is what the Maquis wanted all along.
     
  5. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The federation hunted the Maquis down as animals after Cardassia helped its DMZ colonists break the treaty - but the federation didn't fail them? Really?

    A federation using biological weapons against a federation colony (which threatened to kill men, women, children - citizens of the UFP -, and, in all probability, killed a number of them) because one maquis - Eddington - used a biological weapon, is not a federation that failed its maquis citizens? Ridiculous.
    Also - nice to see the ethics of the federation are the ethics of war criminals.

    The federation let the its DMZ citizens be massacred without doing a single thing - I guess that, as the federation saw it, it had only rights over them (to hunt them down and poison their colonies for breaking its laws) but no obligations (to protect them).
    And this is the federation not failing the Maquis.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which part of "the colonists chose to live under the Cardassian government" wasn't clear to you?

    I'm left wondering exactly what the colonists thought was going to happen to them. First they choose to live perilously close to a hostile government, then they choose to live under that government instead of leaving when they're given the chance, then they decide they'd rather stir things up and risk provoking an interstellar war than move.

    If nothing else had persuaded them, I'd have thought Dukat's selling out of Cardassia to the Dominion would have gotten their attention. If I'd been a Maquis, the minute I learned that the Jem'hadar would be "resolving" the situation I would have packed up and fled for the nearest Federation planet. Hell, I might have even made an effort to (re)join Starfleet and worry about my own measly planet after the war was over.

    In an age of transporters, replicators, holodecks, etc., "this is our home!!!" is IMO an especially weak argument under the circumstances.
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Indeed.

    The Federation had to sign that treaty; that much is obvious. Either sign the treaty, or go to war with Cardassia. And the Federation was perfectly willing to help the colonists move; it can be realistically argued that the colonists HAD to move, to preserve the greater good (peace with Cardassia).
     
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure the trouble started when the Cardassian government violated the treaty by arming their colonies.

    So yeah the federation failed the Maquis in that they never bothered to make sure the Cardassians (who have been known to violate agreements before) obeyed the treaty.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ It was Cardassian territory. What was the Federation supposed to do, barge into their space on their own?
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sooo...a nation already believed to be oppressive to live under ended up oppressing people living under it?

    It's too bad nobody could have possibly seen that one coming.
     
  11. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Also, the Prime Directive would seem to apply here. These colonists renounced their Federation citizenship and lived as citizens of the Cardassian Union. So if the Federation tried to interfere, that would be a breach of the PD and could lead to war.

    Indeed, wasn't Eddington bragging about how the Maquis were going to declare independence? (Although that could have been an instance of Eddington being the egotistical jackass that he was.)
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's also entirely possible that the Federation would have done more about the situation but simply wasn't in a position to do so. Didn't Picard and Nechayev both agree that the treaty was sub-par? It's possible if Starfleet had been more built up at the time that they could have pushed for a better treaty and/or made more of an effort to uphold it afterward. As it was I suspect they were happy enough that war didn't break out.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah because peace at all costs sure worked well with Cardassia. They only attempted to sieze Minos Korva while they were negotiating that treaty, routinely attacked Federaton targets when it suited their agenda afterward, and let's not forget that little thing called being the catalyst to the Dominion war. That was well worth selling out their own people for.
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Which part of - watch 'The Maquis' again - is not clear to you?
    Among the many revelations you will have is that the colonists chose to live in the DMZ under federation government.
    Also, if the Maquis were really under Cardassian government, then the federation had no right to hunt them down as criminals, etc.

    As for the rest of your post, your attempts to blame the victims are transparent enough to be clear to everyone who caress to look at the depicted situation even half-way objectively.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    (laughs) Okie-doke.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And yet none of those things ultimately led to a war which it seems the Federation couldn't have afforded at the time.

    I think Star Trek fans have a tendency to assume Starfleet can handle any situation that arises when looking back at things that occurred during TNG it seems obvious that they must have had limits to their resources at the time.
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or a tendency to assume that peace at all costs doesn't work on a nation that doesn't want peace. Sacrifice a lot to avoid a small war today, only to fight a big one tomorrow. Good call.
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No it was the Demilitarized Zone


    which means NO WEAPONS, none, zip, zero, nada

    How about making sure the Demilitarized Zone was staying demilitarized since otherwise that whole treaty the Federation and the Cardassians came up with the inconvenienced a lot of people for the chance of peace ISN'T WORTH S!@T.
     
  19. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Both sides messed up IMO.

    Some of the Maquis had some strange ideas about home- colonize a planet on the border with Cardassia, even though they were warned not to do it.

    Just taking a look at what Cardassian military can be like should have made that decision easy.

    The Federation is prosperous- they have plenty of planets to choose from.

    At the same time, the Federation bent over backwards to please the Cardassians, even after all their plots and schemes were uncovered.

    The truth is though, that any group of people who are stubborn enough to move onto a planet right on a disputed border with a hostile power with a reputation for brutality, despite being warned--

    -- is going to the be the same type to form a terrorist/resistance group and fight unto every one of them is wiped out.
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Your location says you're from California.. would you feel the same if the US ceded California to Mexico as part of an agreement to stop drug cartel violence, and the Mexican Army began to oppress the people there? You'd just up and leave and not care because the rest of the US is prosperous? Even if it was your own family that was indiscriminately targeted?