Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by indolover, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Rojixus

    Rojixus Commander Red Shirt

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    You cant provoke the Borg! They will only send the necessary amount of cubes, otherwise they would have sent a thousand cubes the second time around. Damn peacemongers will be the death of us all.
     
  2. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes you can, they'll send one Cube to fringers they don't really care about. As soon as the Fringers do anything to make the Borg think of them as a semi-threat (like, trying to unleash a killer virus) they'll start caring and send a REAL invasion force. They won't bother with a real invasion unless you make yourself worth it.
     
  3. Rojixus

    Rojixus Commander Red Shirt

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    Where is your evidence?
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That they never DID launch a real attack on the Feds, and we know that the Borg can choose to simply ignore species and not assimilate them but pass by not caring.
     
  5. Rojixus

    Rojixus Commander Red Shirt

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    That is just speculation, how do you know the Borg never launched a real attack? What we do know is the Borg will not send any more ships than what is necessary, your argument is faulty at best.
     
  6. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    Compare the Borg to all other great Federation enemies.

    They are not like the Klingons. The Borg don't believe in honour, and cannot be reasoned with if you show yourselves to be honourable.

    they are not like the Romulans. You can't sign a treaty with them, and let them hide behind the Neutral Zone.

    They aren't like the Cardassians. The Cardassian border war only ended since it was a stalemate, and continuing the fighting made no sense to either party. Stalemate between the Borg and the Federation is like a boxing match between Mike Tyson in his prime and a ninety year old man. no contest.

    They aren't like the Dominion. Even though the Founders of the Dominion detest all solids everywhere, they (for now) are willing to retreat to the Gamma Quadrant and stay out of the Alpha Quadrant's business. I say for now since I think one day they'll be back, but i'm digressing.

    Since the Borg are far superior technologically to the Federation, will not relent until they assimilate the Federation, and never understand the concept of co-existence or peace, then I can certainly understand Picard's reasoning at the start. In a sense it's a "them or us" scenario.

    Of course, there is the moral aspect of the argument, which has a strong case. But let's pose a hypothetical scenario. say in Best of Both Worlds, the Enterprise-D under Riker as a last resort warped into the Borg Cube (as they nearly did) and destroyed most of it. However, Locutus and some other Borg survived and beamed down to Earth, and started to assimilate humans on the planet. Would it be bad to infect the Borg with a virus then?

    What if they assimilate Earth, and then moved from one Federation member world to the next? What if they attacked Qo'nos, Romulus, Cardassia or Ferenginar? They could easily have done this, since to the Borg the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Ferengi would all be good candidates for assimilation. In the good of the Alpha Quadrant, why not act?
     
  7. john titor

    john titor Captain

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    wAS PICARD WRONG FUCK NNO!!!. wHY?2 DARe thou asketh?! Well I';ll tell thee why....because Janeway would've wiped them out so Picard by taking the opposite decision was in the right because Janeway is an evil war bithc who makes the wrong decisions all theim thyme. YHeah. DEFENCE DEFENCE DEFENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  8. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    You don't seem to understand one thing, Mr Troi:

    PICARD DID COMMIT GENOCIDE!

    Picard had a chance to stop the borg and he didn't use it, knowing that the borg are and will continue to kill BILLIONS, in an orgy of violence, death and suffering beyond comprehension...

    Picard either used the weapon against the borg, destroying the hive mind, or he didn't, in which case he, too, is responsible for the death of BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS at the hands of the borg.
    One can only choose the 'lesser evil' in this situation; there's no moral, 'white' choice.

    Picard allowed the borg to endure, staining his hands with the blood of BILLIONS.

    And why did Picard did this?
    He did it in order to delude himself that, even in this situation, he made the perfectly moral, 'white' choice. As for the BILLIONS the borg continued to kill, well, if Picard didn't have to see their faces as they died, he can keep telling himseld they're not his problem, that their blood is not staining his hands, too.
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nope, he didn't condemn anybody. If anything, he SAVED the Federation from immediate destruction. And his morality was correct as well.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So it's moral to stand by and do nothing while others suffer? Which is what this argument ultimately comes down to.

    As it currently stands the Borg are a remote threat. But a threat that continues to test Federation defenses. So that does constitute them as an 'active' threat? I think it does.

    Only distance seems to keep the Borg from launching an all-out campaign against the Federation at the time of "I, Borg".

    From my standpoint using the virus is the "moral" thing to do. Sitting on a weapon that may essentially stop a "force of nature" from destroying civilizations is downright wrong. Of course nothing in life is guaranteed... so it may not work. But the distance that seems to keep the Borg at bay still exists
     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When the only alternative is to do something doomed-to-failure from inception that will only make you more noticeable, then yes it IS the moral thing to do. In fact it's beyond moral, it's simply the ONLY thing to do.
     
  12. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    Anwar

    Watch 'I, Borg'.

    When he made his decision, Picard was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the paradox will work. In his subjective decision-making forum, that the paradox will work was a certainty.

    And this was true for the rest of the crew. And given that many from the crew were more than qualified to make accurate judgments on this kind of matters, the paradox had a VERY HIGH CHANCE of working, of dismantling the collective mind.
     
  13. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He was wrong.

    They were wrong, and should have known better.
     
  14. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    So - they were wrong because you say so.
    Cute.
    I guess this is part of your - I don't care about the facts, I'm in my 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' mode.


    Just remember - Picard made his decision being convinced the paradox will work - in other words, he CHOOSE to sacrifice BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS just so that he can delude himself that he's morally spotless.
    That was his INTENT - whether the paradox would objectively have worked or not is irrelevant on this subjective level.

    Of course, in reality, his bodycount surpassed that of any monster from our history.
    All the horrors that permeate our history? They pale by comparison to what Picard choose to allow to happen due to his fanaticism.
    No ammount of self-righteous speeches will wash away the river of blood that stains Picard's hands.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    :guffaw:

    So it's better to stick your head in the sand and hope the 'big bad wolf' doesn't notice your house of straw as he goes by.

    Priceless.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Picard didn't do "nothing". He sent Hugh back to the Collective. Which probably was a far more potent weapon - Hugh's individuality. The virus may not have worked, but Hugh himself sure did (to a point, anyway).
     
  17. Rojixus

    Rojixus Commander Red Shirt

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    How did it help? Hugh didn't change anything about the Borg.
     
  18. ProtoAvatar

    ProtoAvatar Fleet Captain

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    Consider the crew's attitude towards this 'individuality' weapon - a jaded it 'may' do something.
    Compare it with their certainty that the paradox will work.

    The individuality attack was a long shot, had very low chances of succes.
    Enterprises' crew knew that - and they were proven right by the individuality attack's failure to even scrarch the collective - only 1 ship affected out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUBES the collective has? It didn't even slow down the borg:guffaw:!

    An attitude made even more ridiculous (yes, it's actually possible:rommie:) by the fact that the 'big bad wold' already noticed your house and it was a certainty he would, sooner rather than later, come for his 'prey', for you.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If the Big Bad Wolf only hunts and kills those it thinks are worth killing, and for the time being you DON'T appear worthy (and probably aren't) then you do NOT provoke him into actually wanting to kill you when he otherwise would just have a middling interest but not really care about you. It's suicide.
     
  20. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah too bad for Picard's certainty that later Trek episodes show the Borg as able to cut off ships infected with viruses aka what happened to the Borg kids in Voyager's cube.

    No they were wrong because it was shown in later episodes that the Borg can cut entire ships off from the collective when they are infected with any type of virus.

    You really need to watch more than one Borg epiosde before you claim to know everything about them.