Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by indolover, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Assimilation is only for individual life forms who aren't already part of the Borg. Reintegrating an errant drone is, I'm sure, quite different.

    It'd be like a soldier returning from leave, versus a new recruit going through boot.
     
  2. Pseudo

    Pseudo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'd take this to be that as he was already a Borg they would be uploading the information that he had accumulated while he was separated from the collective.

    Whereas assimilation seems to involve installing the physical components necessary to link an individual to the collective and then downloading the necessary information to the individual drone.

    To my mind it's basically the difference between backing up 'My Documents' and installing Windows. :)
     
  3. neozeks

    neozeks Captain Captain

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    Um, how exactly would it end Nazi evils if you left the Nazis in power, with their armies intact (as you'd have to, or the Soviets would overrun them)? You'd rely on their word?
    And I thought 'appeasment' was one of the mistakes that lead to the war in the first place...
    Or not. It's just as likely that Stalin would have felt betrayed, paid no heed to the West and continued the drive to Berlin (stiffening resistance? the Soviets crushed the Germans with 70 percent of the forces already there, I seriously doubt what the Germans had in the west would have changed a thing). And the confrontation between the West and the Soviets would have been ever more tense after that.

    Though this doesn't really have much to do with Picard and the Borg...
     
  4. Neutral Zone

    Neutral Zone Captain Captain

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    I think if Picard had gone through with the plan it would have only slowed the Borg down, they always had a knack of surviving. I always thought the early introduction to the Borg by Q was wrong. Up to then they never knew we exisisted and they were busy eating up the Delta Quadrant.
     
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If Q hadn't done so, then the Feds wouldn't have upscaled their weapons tech and new ship designs as well as fleet numbers. The Dominion would have easily defeated them.

    Q's thing was that his actions ultimately were for the benefit of humanity, no matter how nasty those actions were. He said that the Romulans and Klingons were nothing compared to future Fed enemies, and he was right (and he DIDN'T just mean the Borg).
     
  6. Nardpuncher

    Nardpuncher Rear Admiral

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    They might do that but then they would be wrong, as the Federation and humanity are not homogenous, like the Borg.
    The great thing about debating this sort of thing is that we know how each and every Borg is meant to act. It's a given that its hive mind will tell it to assimilate.
    The thing is it's only fiction, even if we had a "KILL ALL TERRORISTS" button in real life it would be to dangerous (as in difficult to define the paprameters of 'terrorist') to use.
     
  7. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    Archer met the Borg.

    Seven of Nine was assimilated years before Q Who happened.

    It's a screw-up in continuity from the writers, since we were led to believe that Q Who was the true first contact between the Borg and the Federation.
     
  8. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg in Enterprise isn't a continuity issue, since the Collective in the Delta Quadrant didn't learn of the incident until about the time of "Q Who."

    Having Seven and her parents assimilated when they were, however, was a continuity error, IMO. Though, I can believe that the Borg didn't think humanity was that important to worry about after those three individuals were assimilated and only decided to try to assimilate the race at a later date.
     
  9. Blueicus

    Blueicus Captain Captain

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    But the Borg were already active in and around Federation space prior to Q Who, such as those outposts destroyed around the time of the episode "The Neutral Zone". You could justify what happened by assuming that the Borg destroyed those outposts because they assimilated Seven's parents' ship and decided to probe these new species they just learned about.
     
  10. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    You could also say the Borg decided to probe these new species after the transmission from "Regeneration" was received in the Delta Quadrant. Once they found out that some Borg had, without the Collective's knowledge, been at the location of Earth in the 21st and 22nd centuries, they decide to give the situation a closer look.

    The whole Borg story arc revolves around a predestination paradox. The Borg wouldn't even be interested in Humans if their interest hadn't been aroused by a 200 year old message they received from themselves. In "Dark Frontier" the Borg Queen flat out says that humanity is an unimpressive candidate for assimilation. That's why I believe they didn't go after all of the race after the Hansens were assimiliated. They're interested in humanity, and other nearby species, because their own time travel paradoxes have caught their attention.

    The "first contact" between the Borg and the Federation at the hands of Q in "Q Who," then, isn't what it appears to be. It was a situation where the Federation "officially" met the Borg for the first time. However, the Borg where aware of humanity's existance long before Q introduced the Enterprise-D to them.
     
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Firstly, it wouldn't have worked.

    The Borg would have just thought, "We'll, I've been looking at it for three years now, and it's obviously a paradox. I'm gonna stop now."

    Besides, if a paradox could destroy the Borg, they would have encountered one long before Picard came along.

    And if it really would work, why not just send a different ship out with a captain who wouldn't balk at it?

    And for the record, here's my interpretation of the Borg timeline with the Feds.

    • Sphere is destroyed in Earth orbit just before Zef's warp flight.
    • A century later, the research team comes across the wreckage of the sphere and defrosts some drones. They end up transmitting a message, and it will take the Borg 200 years or so to receive it and then come and have a look at this Federation thing.
    • A long time later, the Hansens go to investigate the Borg after hearing rumours etc. They end up being zipped to the other side of the galaxy and being assimilated. No one in the Federation knows about that for a long time though. As far as they are concerned, the Hansens just vanished.
    • Tombaugh is assimilated. Again, its disappreance is a mystery.
    • Q Who. And we know the rest from there.

    I think that works pretty well.
     
  12. USS KG5

    USS KG5 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As soon as Hitler died the Nazis surrendered, given a chance they would have done in 1944 but Hitler and those around him would never have accepted this.

    Why blame the allies? "Unconditional Surrender" is a good thing to ask for when fighting a "total" war, and honestly I don't think anyone was keen to be fighting, literally millions were dying.

    Also how would giving the Nazis mercy have stopped the Russians from taking over Eastern Europe? The Nazis certainly would not have surrendered if they were not losing very badly, so at the absolute earliest mid-1944, after D-Day when the Russian summer offensive had already taken most of the ground they would later have.

    Sure Soviet Russia was bad, but Hitler was much worse. The western allies saved as much as they could from communism without provoking another war. Sure it was not all sunchine and lollipops but a tremendous amount of good was done.

    So the Nazi invasion of the whole of Europe was a fun romp we should have laughed off, Britain should have just let Hitler cross the channel and take over? Liberating France did not create a liberal ,left leaning democracy? The European Union is not a freely co-operating alliance of Imperial powers that bickered for centuries until the utter destruction of WW2 compelled us all to change our ways?

    Your argument to me seems really ludicrous.

    Well it was a total war - one side or the other. Hitler was MAD he was not going to give back his conquered lands and live in peace with the west or the USSR, no idea why you think he would have.

    The twentieth century saw war fought in a completely different way to the 19th, with vastly more technology and total industrialisatino allowing a whole population to contribute to a conflict. This is also going to lead naturally to a change to the definition of "victory".

    For over two years Britain was simply fighting to survive, as was the USSR for over a year. That in the end all three powers agreed that the Nazis should simply be wiped out is fairly sensible.

    Nice idea but in reality you have to accept WW2 as a one-off in this respect. Whereas the conflict in Northern Ireland, Iraq and hopefully eventually Afghanistan can be resolved with a constructive peace from a cease fire, the Nazi regime could not be allowed to stand. They were fundamentally too dangerous.

    Utter crap, sorry but it just is total nonsense. Hitler would never have negotiated in good faith. Never. Nothing I have ever read about him suggests he would have.

    They were genocidal maniacs. The Prussian aristocracy who ran the upper echelons of the Wermacht probably would have negotiated a cease fire, but their various plots to kill Hitler and do so all failed largely due to lack of support.

    You might not want to travel back in time and mention that to the 50,000 dead British civilians from the Blitz, or the millions of dead Russians from Barbarossa. Or the citizens of Rotterdam or Warsaw.

    I do see your point and applied to virtually any other conflict I'd almost agree, but not WW2, not with what the Nazis did and stood for.

    Sometimes you really do need "total victory" and while a negotiated peace would probably have ended the war in 1944 with hundreds of thousands saved had Hitler been removed, while he was in charge and had broad support it was never going to end. If Hitler had somehow survived Berlin the allies would probably have had to liberate Denmark and Norway with force as well!
     
  13. Canuck69

    Canuck69 Commander Red Shirt

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    I think someone mentioned this already, but I thought I would just say it my way. I always got the impression Picard was supposed to be wrong in I, Borg. He was suppossed to make the wrong desicion, to teach his character that his morals and expectations will not always work in his favor. I think maybe the writers were trying to show a flaw in his character.

    We see a lot of episodes that preach his good morals, and more often than not it always works out for him in the end. I feel this is one of those times that required Picard to reach beyond the safety of his view of the universe and the Federation, and he failed. And not only does he pay the consequences, but damn near loses his mind in the process.

    I thought it was refreshing to see him fail, have to live with the fact that his "We are the Federation, we do no harm" line of thinking was shattered, and eventually thrown out the window with the likes of First Contact.
     
  14. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Amen.

    I think, as of "First Contact", when Lily confronts him about the hypocrisy of all his speeches on "evolved sensibility", he finally gets off for good the stupid high-horse so many "intellectuals" have...and face the facts. It took a while for him to reach that point, but by then, he has understood that sometimes, going by "values" and "principles" are just going to get us all killed.

    It's the same lesson Sisko begrudgingly learns in "In The Pale Moonlight"--and which Bashir is dragged, kicking and screaming, into accepting in "Inter Arna..." and "Extreme Measures".
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which was kind of annoying really, all that talk of how "the dream will never die!" and all that stuff. Then a few episodes later Sisko goes and destroys the dream himself. The writers were schizo on whether or not they wanted to discard idealism.
     
  16. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    I'd say it's also the same lesson that Janeway teaches the rest of the Voyager crew in "The Omega Directive." Omega must be eliminated. She fully accepts this and agrees with Starfleet that the greater good has to come first. If that means destorying an alien race's means of energy production and violating the Prime Directive, so be it.

    She's clearly setting aside her "values" and "principles" in order to achieve what absolutely needs to be achieved. That's the reason why "The Omega Directive" is one of my favorite Voyager episodes.
     
  17. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder if folks realize the irony of Omega:

    The Section 31 novel Cloak establishes why the Omega Directive came to be--it was due to an expirimentation on the molecule by a group of ambitious scientists supposedly subsidized by Section 31.

    This book, and the other books in the miniseries, go to great lengths to demonize The Bureau as either incompetent or just plain evil. Our heroes dismiss the arguments of the 31 agents out of hand, swearing to bring them down, someday.

    And yet...Janeway is forced to effectively employ Section 31's methods to do what is neccesary to save lives...the justification Section 31 asserts, as well.
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually that is pretty much what most of their Book appearences and the last arc of DS9 show.
     
  19. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No more wrong than Picard would have been, and not one bit more guilty of genocide.

    Anyway, how homogenous might humanity appear to an alien? Fleas can probably tell the difference between other fleas, after all.
     
  20. JRS

    JRS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In my opinion, the biggest problem of wiping out the entire Borg race is the fact that the assimilated drones can be severed from the hive mind, and thus saved from the Collective.
    We saw this happen to 7 of 9, Hugh and even to Picard himself.
    Im suprised that there never was attempt to try to rescue the Borg, rather than destroy them:borg:...