Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by CaptainJon, May 21, 2009.
I agree with all of this.
I think it's all a matter of opinion, but I personally would not call Nemesis the worst Trek film. For me that mantle rests with The Final Frontier, but it's all a matter of opinion. I admit was greatly disappointed by Nemesis, especially since all the right pieces were there for a great movie. They just couldn't pull it off because of a play-it-safe-by-the-books producer an ignorant director.
I know I'm a somewhat lone voice, but I greatly enjoyed Nemesis every time I saw it at the cinema and again when I got it on DVD. I really don't see much basis for all the hate. The only thing I thought was really bad was the completely unnecessary planet scene. Aside from that, I loved it.
Yep. And on top of that he's defanged early on the movie between being on the verge of dying without Picard's help and losing the support of his associates, if I remember right. Nero in the new movie is how Shinzon should have been.
Weak villian, pointless revenge plot, B4 were all reasons why this was bad. I knew it was going to be a painful ride when 30 or so minutes in when I was wishing the movie had been a little more like Insurrection.
Maybe it's not as bad as I remember? I don't know, but Nemesis is the first Trek movie I've had no desire to watch again.
I presume that he means to destroy Earth to unite Romulans and Remans alike behind his rule through such a demonstration of his power. It makes no less sense than Nero's motivations.
Add to this the fact that he's on the verge of death unless he can steal Picard's DNA (or whatever) Time is of the essense...so what does he do? The Enterprise turns up in Romulus orbit and Shinzon sits there cloaked for hours and hours...then appears, gets Picard to pop over and then--rather than use his superior forces to destroy the Enterprise and capture Picard--actually invites Picard to dinner and says see you tonight! Its utterly ludicrous! As is his plan to destroy Earth (it's all their fault apparently?)
Plus whenever we saw young Picard in Next Gen it was clear that he did once have hair!
Worst Trek film by a mile for me, but I would have forgiven the plot elements if the characters had acted more like the people I knew from 7 seasons and 3 previous films, and if the film had been better directed.
As I was told in one of the Trek XI review threads, there are no such things as plot holes...just imagination holes, where you the viewer are to fill in the blanks. It gives a movie a free pass. Yeah, I don't believe that either.
I liked Nemesis. I don't think it deserves all the crap it gets. I think the premise is strong, as well as the theme the story was presenting. Then again, I find the whole nature v. nurture thing interesting.
However, I do realize that it is not a polished film and could have used a better director (not necessarily one that is familiar with Trek history, but at least one that can construct a logical flowing story) or at least a script consultant to iron out some of the bumps that were featured in it (bottomless pit in the Enterprise, anyone?).
The few other problems that plagued it, I am sure, dealt with it's release date (not really good to have this film released in a season with about 90 other hotly anticipated flicks), coupled with the fact that the script was leaked online about a year before the movie causing an extremely early bad word of mouth. Also, I just don't think Paramount cared enough about the movie. They seemed to just give Braid the directing job "just because." Supposedly it was the highest marketed Trek movie up to that point. How? Where? I never saw anything, not even commercials on TV.
Oh, come on. Of all the things to complain about, this is probably the dumbest. That is one of those things you just have to run with. Chris Pine looks NOTHING like William Shatner, yet he is meant to be young Kirk and is even recognized by Old Spock. Yet, no one complained about that in Trek XI.
They were going age him quickly and replace the real Picard (obviously in an earlier point in his career) as a spy in the Federation. However, governments changed and so did their plans. This was explained in the movie.
Schinzon's head looked pretty obviously shaved. I just assumed that the character shaved it to psych Picard out. And there is nothing ruling out that Picard shaved his head earlier in life. Maybe he shaved it during cross-country season. As established in BoBW, Picard was a runner, and many runners seem to do that. The showing of that picture was probably done to further the connection for the viewing audience and, again, this is one of those things that you just have to run with.
Sounds like you have no problem with those "imagination holes".
I think "Nemesis" was what I would consider a "decent" film...not great but, serviceable. Of the first ten "Star Trek" films, it's certainly better than "Final Frontier", the ORIGINAL cut of "The Motion Picture" and "Insurrection" (now, THERE was a "big TV episode"). Of the "Next Generation" films, it's #3 as far as I'm concerned ("First Contact" being #1, "Generations" #2, etc.).
Further, it's not that the release of "Nemesis" was poorly timed (it was) as much as there was just too much "Star Trek" at the time ("Enterprise" on TV, "Voyager" had just wrapped up) & the general public (as well as myself) pretty much was saying what Homer Simpson said at the beginning of "The Simpsons Movie"..."why should I shell out nine bucks for something I can watch at home for free?"
Suffice it to say, Paramount very nearly killed its' cash cow by over-feeding it. Now that "Star Trek"'s been on a diet for seven years, the time for the newest incarnation is ripe.
Also, remember that Paramount only started making "Next Generation" movies for two reasons: 1) The original cast was old & 2) "Next Generation" cast members didn't get paid as much as the original cast. Also, it was Paramount that killed the basic idea of this new film back in 1990. I don't think the powers-that-be ever truly understood what they were dealing with. Probably still don't...
I thought it sucked for all the reasons stated before, especially the idea of finding another Data prototype. That made no sense at all to me. What? did they all get amnesia or something and forget they did that before with Lore?
Any way wish the TNG could have gone out with a better movie than this turkey. They deserved better.
I accepted Chris Pine as Kirk because:
a. He wasn't supposed to be a 100% representation of the Kirk from TOS, more like a capture of the main points about the character. In Nemesis, Shinzon IS supposed to be 100% Picard, only younger.
b. Chris Pine actually did a good job with the role. I honestly thought I was going to hate his portrayal, and while not perfect, it captured enough essence of the character to be likeable. Like I said in another thread, he captured "Kirk" without getting trapped in imitating "Shatner".
Shinzon(Tom Hardy) on the other hand, tried to play the role as a moody, dark character, and only managed to seem a whiny teenage brat. If they WANTED to insist on the same story, I would have at least showed some aging progression on Tom Hardy, perhaps some prosthetics? And at the end of the movie, I would have had Patrick Stewart play and aged Shinzon and that "this" Shinzon be the one that fights Picard.
But hey, that's me. Data still died, so I can't forgive the movie.
Haha...touche. I guess my point on that is Shizon being bald (and a picture of young Picard being bald) seems like such a minor quibble compared to other things that can be legitimate complaints.
Did we see the same movie. One of the major points of the film was how the same person could go down radically different paths. Shizon was not supposed to be a 100% representation of Picard. More of a twisted mirror version of him.
If you thought that, then you completely misunderstood one of the key points of the film, which was spelled out quite clearly in a discussion between Data and Picard.
Life goes on. Styles change. Tastes change. Technology improves.
Yet none of this was allowed to affect Berman's idea of Gene Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek. The problem with NEM isn't that it was a BAD movie. It was... mediocre.
Berman's Trek was allowed to stagnate. It was more of the SAME Trek we'd been getting for 16+ years at that point. THAT is probably it's worst sin. We were being treated by some incredible movies like LOTR and such and dazzled with incredible production values in other genre flicks. But Trek had the same tired look, feel, story and production values.
As others have said, NEM had a lot of flaws. After I watched it a second time I didn't dislike it so much. But what pisses me off is the potential was there for something much better than what we got.
As for the timing, I'm not sure what CaptainJon was referring to. I know that the marketing for the film was horrible as was the release date. A better cross promotion/tie-in with ENT besides "Minefield" would've been sweet too.
TPTB really poured a lot of effort in promoting the new Trek film. With NEM they seemed to want to just wash their hands of the TNG movie franchise. It just helped add to the sense of fatigue this film was swimming in.
Your reasons are some of the reasons I also dislike the movie. I have been able to watch it completely 2 times (including once in the theater). A third time I tried, and I couldn't make it past the introduction to Shinzon. Now, I can't even stomach half the movie before I turn it off. To me it's just so monumentally bad that I only own it as I'm a completist, and have to have an entire collection of something.
You mean the one where Picard said, "If Shinzon had led the exact same like I had, would he still be an angry little weiner?"
The correct answer, which Data failed to provide, is no. Shinzon's life is what made him who he was. If he had led Picard's life, he would have ended up like Picard.
That whole conversation between Picard and Data didn't make any sense.
To me Nemesis was bad because it didn't feel like a Star Trek movie. It felt more like Paramount had a very mediocre idea for a movie and decided to slap Star Trek elements on it. It's almost like they knew if they slaped Star Trek on it they could sucker the fans into seeing it at least once in the theater and completest fans would buy it on home video whether they thought the movie sucked or not.
Note: This is just my opinion. I mean no disrespect to those who enjoy the film.
Actually, that sounds much like the other 12-15% of the people on this board who didn't like the new Star Trek movie. I guess it's one of those generalities that can be used for any Star Trek movie, no offense to you intended, of course.
Oddly enough I didn't think the new movie was that bad, it reminds me of the Lost in Space movie. It tries to revamp the franchise by trying not to alienate the old fans too much while tryng to gain new fans. To me I-IX dispite all of their faults meant well, they all had a heart. With Nemesis it feels like Paramount new they had a crappy script laying around and thought "we haven't released a Trek film lately have we?". I get this odd vibe from the main cast that even they know it's a crappy film and they're not having any fun making it. All the acting in it is flat and unemotional.
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