Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Brannigan, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Reporters - You don't really expect statements from those that would qualify for an encyclopedia, especially when they ignore the captaincy of Spock who also (somehow) "died" in the line of duty?

    I find it difficult to believe that anyone in Starfleet who achieved an admiral's rank can just say "I'm having second thoughts, I realize I don't really like the paperwork and would like to get another starship command at the earliest next convenience, please."

    KIRK: Spare me your notions of poetry, please. We all have our assigned duties.

    OTOH, McCoy's statement suggests differently:

    McCOY: Get back your command. Get it back before you turn into part of this collection. Before you really do grow old.

    Maybe Kirk is an exceptional case and Starfleet is willing to bend the rules for him, considering his public image.

    However, if the public only looks up to Kirk, then the other starship captains aren't that "right stuff" apparently (and illustrated by Captain Harriman of the Enterprise-B :rolleyes:).

    Come to think of it Kirk's situation in TWOK might be another illustration of "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few":

    Although he could get back a starship command, he prefers not to receive special treatment and instead do the job he is assigned to.

    Bob
     
  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And yet, as I said, no one corrects the reporter as if he made a mistake, not even Kirk, who looks quite pensive in the scene, as if the reporter struck a nerve. That wouldn't have happened if the reporter had his facts wrong. And I would think that every schoolkid in the 23rd century would know about the history of the Enterprise by then (just like Harriman states), so the chances of that reporter getting something so elementary wrong such as who's been in command of ships named Enterprise over a 30 year period would be quite slim. As for Spock, see below.

    But not actually knowing what happened in the intervening time between TMP and TWOK or seeing anything on screen, the only evidence we have is this reporter's statement that no one was in command of either the Ent-nil or the Ent-A other than Kirk. And for all we know, Kirk was in overall command of the ship during TWOK, but allowed Spock to have the conn during the training shakedown temporarily.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
  3. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Is it common for reporters to correct other reporters' questions in the middle of a shout-your-questions photo op?

    Also, the reporter's question is correct even if there have been multiple other captains of the ship: the Enterprise-B is, by definition, the first starship Enterprise in thirty years never to have been commanded by James Kirk. The question is not very different to asking John Young about the Orion capsules as the first American spacecraft in over fifty years which he did not fly, which is true regardless of the fact that he didn't fly every American spacecraft of the past half-century (and didn't even fly all five operational space shuttles, come to that.)
     
  4. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    First of all, even the novelization -- written by Gene Rodenberry, no less -- goes into exhaustive detail of exactly how Kirk ended up making Admiral in the first place. His argument with Nogura happens in that context:

    In the end, Nogura caved because Kirk promised him that he was motivated PURELY by the need to intercept V'ger and by nothing else, and then added a the shameless guilt-trip of "I've never lied to you, and I'm sure you've never lied to me." The other half of this issue is that Kirk played on Decker's reputation for being overly cautious at times, which put him in a position to pull rank and take over for the emergency.

    As for taking back the Enterprise for a five-year mission, there's NOTHING AT ALL that suggests he remained on board any longer than the actual shakedown cruise. The novelization goes on to suggest that with Kirk's spectacular success in the V'ger incident, he basically had Nogura by the balls and could request just about anything and have it granted. Even if Kirk got what he wanted -- which is far from certain -- that would create a huge amount of tension in an already strained relationship between Kirk and the Admiralty.

    Spock doesn't "allow" it at all, he INSISTS. Partly because he knows the regulations, but mostly because he is Kirk's friend and knows it'll be good for him.

    And they use every excuse in the books to avoid giving him a NEW command.

    Which, as we find out at the end of TVH, they could have easily done; apparently they had a ship already waiting for a crew (whatever it was that wound up being christened Enterprise-A) but they didn't want to give it to Kirk. This makes it another repeat of TMP: the Admiralty wants Kirk off the bridge, and this time Kirk doesn't have a legitimate excuse to push back.

    Consider that for a moment: Chekov is promoted to first officer on USS Reliant at a time when McCoy is lamenting "Why don't we put an experienced crew back on the ship?" This begs the question of why Enterprise IS short of experienced officers, why isn't Chekov acting as first officer of the Enterprise? More importantly, why is Sulu taking "any chance to go aboard the Enterprise" instead of being, you know, CAPTAIN of the Enterprise?

    The simple answer is that the Enterprise crew didn't just get promoted, they got LATERALLY promoted away from Kirk's command. Only the Admiralty specifically knows why, but at least in TMP it's strongly suggested that Starfleet put Kirk behind the desk for the organization's needs to the complete detriment of his career.

    Actually, that was the specific reason why they initially wanted him behind a desk, where his experience could do more good for the organization as a whole. The U.S. Navy does the same thing in the submarine service: attack boat skippers rarely get more than one command assignment and NEVER get more than two. I'm told that this is also becoming the case with aviators now, where a two-year combat tour (or two if you're lucky) is typically followed by ten to fifteen years in training squadrons, quietly waiting for retirement.
     
  5. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The reporter DID have his facts wrong. That's not even in dispute at this point.

    Why would you expect Kirk to correct him on that regard? He only here in the first place because Scotty talked him into coming; he DEFINITELY didn't come here to argue his personal history with a clueless reporter.

    Can you tell me, just off the top of your head, how many space flights Neil Armstrong had during his entire astronaut career?

    And the reporter was wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
     
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Not to belabor this topic any longer, I'm fine agreeing to disagree. I feel that there's simply not enough (canon) evidence to assume that Kirk wasn't in command of the Enterprises (nil and A) for the duration that that reporter stated, even if he didn't take into account Spock's command (or at least, there wasn't some mystery guy in command of the ship that we know nothing about.)

    As for the novelization of TMP: I've read it, and as far as I'm concerned, its information is invalid unless it appeared on the screen, which it didn't.

    Semantics. That's not what the reporter meant.
     
  7. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

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    The reporter may have his facts right. In Relics, Scotty said, You said the Enterprise? Captain Jim Kirk most have taking the old girl out of mootball and went searching for me.

    But of course, we know that Captain James Kirk got kill in Generation. Which takes place before relics. Which makes the Captain James Kirk that Scotty Mention in Relics was in command of the Enterprise after TMP for ten years.
     
  8. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What? Relics was filmed before Generations, so clearly Scotty's line became invalidated. The prevailing theory is that Scotty's brain got scrambled during his 70 years in the transporter, and he was babbling nonsense.
     
  9. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

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    Your theory is base off fans belief. The writer that had written both Relics and Generation is the same person. And Scotty had shown no symptom of having a scramble brain at the time he step off the transporter.
     
  10. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No. There would be no reason whatsoever for Scotty to think that Kirk rescued him, because thanks to the retcon in Generations, he would have known that Kirk was already dead. The ST Encyclopedia/Chronology makes the assumption that Scotty was suffering from effects of the transporter. That's the only way to make the line work in context.

    And it doesn't matter that the same person wrote both things. Stephen King's later Dark Tower books were inconsistent with his previous books. This happens all the time. The plot for Generations called for Kirk dying, even though it was inconsistent with a line from an earlier TNG episode. It happens.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  11. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

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    Actually I believe the Captain James Kirk that Scotty mention on Relics was Captain Kirk nephew, who would not have been old enough to be Captain of the Enterprise between TMP and TWOK, but is Captain at the time of Generation and Kirk himself is disappointed cause his nephew didn't get command of the Enterprise-B and why Captain Harriman changed the subject so quickly.
     
  12. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    From "Relics":

    "The Enterprise? I should have known. I bet Jim Kirk himself hauled the old girl out of mothballs to come looking for me." (so the Enterprise was mothballed after TUC?!?)

    And Kirk's nephew was Peter Kirk. It's an interesting theory / idea but I think from the context it's rather obvious Scotty was referring to James T. Kirk.

    Bob
     
  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Kirk's nephew was named Peter, not Jim.

    Thanks for that quote. I had forgotten that Scotty actually mentioned the fate of the Enterprise-A. So now we know for a fact that the ship wasn't recommissioned after TUC with a new name & registry.

    Also, if we take Scotty's line literally, then that's even more proof that the Ent-A was not a new ship as of TVH, but an older vessel renamed Enterprise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  14. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

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    On ''What Are Little Girls Made of'' Captain Kirk said; Only My brother Sam and his three sons had seen me off on my first Command. It is later on Operation Annihilate only son of Sam is seen is Peter. Which means that Sam two oldest boys are either at StarFleet Academy, Collage or some other School. Also, we don't know Peter Kirk full name. His name could be Peter James Kirk or James Peter Kirk.
     
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's no evidence whatsoever that Kirk's nephews attended Starfleet Academy, much less commanded a starship. And even if they did, they wouldn't have been in command of the Enterprise-A to be able to get it out of mothballs. And why would Scotty have any emotional attachment to one of Kirk's nephews?

    Scotty's line refers to James T. Kirk, period. It doesn't refer to Kirk's nephews.
     
  16. ProwlAlpha

    ProwlAlpha Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Given how the line was spoken, it was James T. Kirk, not James B. Kirk or James S. Kirk or Peter James (I go by Jim) Kirk. However, I do like the nephew I idea.
     
  17. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    What about James R. Kirk?

    --Alex
     
  18. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

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    There is also no evidence they didn't. Also, cause Kirk was believe to have die on the Enterprise-B, which had taking place before Relics. Which would have made someone else as the person Scotty was referring too. But had they haven't kill off Kirk on Generation? Then you'll be right. But cause they had kill off Kirk on Generation, which would had made the Jim Kirk that Scotty was referring too another person then the person he had serve under.
     
  19. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Look, you can believe whatever you want. But Scotty was referring to James T. Kirk. The episode was made before Generations established that Kirk would have already been dead at the time. It's no different than Albertese's comment about "James R. Kirk." It's a changed premise that cannot be sufficiently explained. It just is. The authors of the ST Chronology put out an idea that Scotty was suffering from the effects of being stuck in the transporter long-term, and that works for me. What doesn't work for me is that Scotty was referring to some nephew of Kirk's with coincidentally the same name who Scotty probably never even met.
     
  20. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    More satisfactory to me is the idea that Scotty had a moment of exuberance in which he didn't think about Kirk being dead. Goodness knows I catch myself thinking of wanting to share something with a friend before remembering the friend died, and I don't even have the excuse Scotty had of going through a catastrophic spaceship crash, desperate struggle for survival, hacking together of a crazy scheme, discovery that the thing worked, being rescued, and the sweet moment of his rescuers having a special sentimental appeal.